Sword translation for a family friend

[cpukill]

Greetings all. I know it's rather noobish for someone with just one post to come into a forum and ask for help, but this site seems like probably the best place to find an answer to my questions.

 

This sword was picked up by a family friend (who is in his late 80's now) during his time in World War II. He served in the Philippines as a combat medic and came across this sword while on a 'clean crew'. He can't remember much more than that (60+ years of memories will do that to a man) and asked my brother to find out anything he could about this sword. Well, my brother isn't exactly the most technically proficient guy, and asked me if there were any resources I might be able to tap.

 

I've taken these pictures from the best angles I could get of the signature. The sword blade it totally spotless. I have more pictures of the hilt and tsuba for any interested. We attempted to get a semi-serious collector to give us some information on the sword, all he offered was $10,000 on the spot and refused any further detail. To be honest it was pretty insulting.

 

Any details are all would be appreciated. A link to all hi-res pictures is http://rapidshare.com/files/325083745/Desktop.rar

[drbvac]

I would like to see the blade as I can't access the photo page. My date books are not here so I can't give you the exact date but I will guess 1941. I would be very surprised if it was worth $10,000.00 but ?

[Mark]

sword is a Showa sword, maybe hand made. but no need to spend time looking everything up, if you want a quick answer --- DROP EVERYTHING AND GO IMMEDIATLY AND GET THE 10K !!!! Deliver the sword on hand and knee if needed, the buyer has made an ofer "that you can't refuse"

[mdiddy]

I echo Mark's sentiment. Don't feel insulted at all. Take the money and RUN!

 

Meanwhile, pics of the blade would be most welcome.

[cpukill]

It's not really one he was planning on selling. If the thing was worth $100,000, I think the old guy might sell it (just to give his kids the money) but he's an old salt that likes having the thing hanging in his garage. More than anything, it's a curiosity to me. I'm far from an expert on swords period, but I always like learning about new subjects. Heck, the blade is sharp as can be, even after the trip back here and 60 years later. I thought it was a minor miracle that it is in as good of shape as it is.

 

We tried to have someone translate the script, but she said it was too old for her to read. Was there a change that happened? I've tried doing some research about the various scripts that were used in Japan, and to be honest, it's pretty overwhelming.

 

Some additional pics below.

[cpukill]

Oh, and I'll try to have some hi-resolution pics of the blade up tomorrow. Camera decided it was going to go on the fritz after I got back from deer hunting, I just happened to have these transferred to my PC before it did.

[Stephen]

all he offered was $10,000 on the spot and refused any further detail. To be honest it was pretty insulting.

 

something dont smell right to me, what would be insulting?? NO way its worth what you hope its worth,(100000) you should tell him its a Seki blade and and worth about a 1/4 of the 10K.

[ottou812]

Showa 17 = 1942

 

 

Date is February 1942.

[John A Stuart]

I'm adverse with my poor skills to translate these choppy WW II signatures, but, I think it may be " Noshu Junin Kanetoshi Kitau Kore". John

[ottou812]

Mei doesn't quite match Murayama Kanetoshi from Sloughs.

[Toryu2020]

　John A is correct,

Seki Kanetoshi, wartime production from present day Gifu-ken in Japan. Looking forward to more photos, be sure to show us the scabbard and handle as well.

 

I wonder how old your "translator" was? Not a lot of young Japanese know the rules of reading sword signatures but certainly most should be able to make out these kanji! and 10k was a great offer, if we are having fun at your expense don't take it out on the deer...

 

-tom

[cpukill]

I'm actually laughing at the comments that this sword is only worth $2500. That's probably the best news that I could give to the old guy. His kids have been fighting over some of the various items he's collected over the years that are worth some money (one Revolutionary War musket he has is worth well over $10K!). He's tired of them fighting over his heirlooms, because they think they're worth tens of thousands, AND he's not even dead yet!

 

It's really a sad state of affairs, which is why he asked my brother to find out what he could about the sword. We're a third party in all this mess, and he's known us since we were pups. Whenever he'd want a tree taken out on his property or help with brush clearing, my brother and I would always do the work for him (heck, when you're 12 years old, $10 is a lot of cash :lol: ).

 

Why that collector was offering $10,000 on the spot is beyond me now. Granted, the blade it still sharp as heck and in excellent condition, but if what you're telling me is true, he must have thought it was something else. Serves the arrogant idiot if he would get taken for that, in my opinion. He just had this...arrogant attitude that really irritated me.

 

Oh, I did finally find someone online that translated the entire thing for me (a native born Japanese that speaks very fluent english). He emailed me this a few hours back:

 

Ah, no prob, bro :D

 

The picture you attached says:

昭和十七年二月

 

Indicating the date the sword was made "year Showa 17, February", with the former translating to the year 1942.

 

The other side of the sword (the one in the rapidshare link) says:

濃州住人 桑原永則 鍛之

 

濃州 = Mino Province (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_provinces_of_Japan)

住人 = resident

兼俊 = the swordsmith's name, Kanetoshi (the "兼" word etched on the sword is in a very stylized form)

鍛之 = forged by

 

So yeah, it's saying that Kanetoshi from Mino forged the sword.

 

Look it up at this site (ctrl+ F "兼俊"):

http://www.jp-sword.com/files/seki/gendaito.html

 

>The only person we ever took it to said she couldn't translate it because the script was too old

Nah, I guess the person wasn't familiar with how funky the word "兼" looked like, brah :D

 

Here's a site I've found for you to verify it (ctrl+F "Kanetoshi")

http://home.earthlink.net/~ttstein/index.htm

 

The first translator I tried, yes, was rather young.

 

Anyways, on to more pictures! Hope you all can get some enjoyment out of this, it's been a nice little discovery for me to find all this out. I greatly appreciate all the help that was provided.

[cpukill]

Second set:

[Toryu2020]

CP?

clearly not the blade he was after, maybe the menuki, the fittings on the handle, if you aren't too tired of taking photos I would be interested to see. Otherwise your photos show a pretty standard Showa-to with civillian mounts. A shame that so many out there, including us "experts" don't know the true value of these swords...

 

 

-tom

[cpukill]

Here you go tom, hopefully this gives you the closeup you wanted of the menuki.

 

As you can see, at one time, the kashira and tsuba were gold-leaf plated, would that have something to do with him offering so much? I can't see how, since most of it has worn off.

[drbvac]

This certainly has gotten stranger and stranger, but from all said and seen , still agree should sell it ASAP, and send the old guy on a nice trip ! :lol:

[Brian]

Just a reminder yet again for everyone to please sign all posts with a name and initial as per the rules.

 

Thanks,

Brian

[Toryu2020]

Well CP, it don't look like it is the menuki either...

-tom

[cpukill]

My apologies Brian.

 

As for the weird price that was offered to us for the old guys sword, my thinking was that collector was just not as knowledgeable as many are on here, and thought the sword was something that it was not. Maybe he thought the old-style stylized Kanji made the sword older than what it was. Either way, the old guy still isn't going to sell it. $2500 isn't a lot compared to how much some of the older antiques he has.

 

Basically, what it comes down to, he's been trying to sell all his heirlooms that are high-dollar items, then split the money with his kids, rather than have them fight over the items. It's such a messed up situation that they're putting the poor guy through, but he still loves them, so he's doing what he can to try and repair his family. I can't say I'd be doing the same if it was my own spoiled children that. Probably makes him a better man than me :lol:

 

Oh, and Brian, I got this weird email a few days back, from a 'Pawel Nowak':

 

Hello:

 

I am a private collector and I have 2 Japanese swords (katana and tanto) with the blade from middle XIX centur and I would like to sell them for the reasonable price (700US$ and 400US$). I have all the papers which shows I am a curent holder of the items. If you could have an interest, please write directly to: luytjens1939@gmail.com

 

Regards,

luytjens1939@gmail.com

 

Dunno if it's one of your members trying to sell outside of the forum or what. I've got no real interest in getting a sword of my own (I'm more of a firearms collector than anything else) so I guess this guy was trying to sell to what he thought was an ignorant schmuck.

 

Anyways, thanks again all , for all your help.

 

-Erik

[Toryu2020]

Erik -

Steer well clear of Pavel Nowak and his many aliases - if you know anyone else getting his email I would advise them as well...

-tom

[Guest hartford10]

I have a trouble in figuring out the image on the sword. I can see the blade clearly but the image is not that much clear that I can read. You need to send the image again with more clarity. This will help me.

[Jean]

Hartford10,

 

PLease, sign your post as per NMB rules

[Curran]

As Jean said, everyone please follow the name protocol. Some semblance of respect for Brian's invaluable NMB please...

 

I followed this thread because it was a boring day and I had a few minutes...

CPU Kill (Erik): When it comes to arkwork I don't much care about money, but it isn't my sword to decide its fate. If dude offered $10k.... get him on the phone right now and sell it. You can buy the owner several like swords for less. I reserve the word *dude* for special use and for when a friend is being a particular bonehead. Be happy to get $10k from *dude*. Even if he is a total asshat that karma wants to serve a lesson, some do-no-harm part of me would hesitate to let him be such a brain dead monkey as to buy it for $10k.

Forgive me, but I must raise an eyebrow that dude even exists. Then again, I live in a place where I am reminded that such people do exist in great number.

 

Blade looks very clean. Fittings are crap. Everyone has advised well. I don't think it would even garner $2500, but eBay is a weird thing and the nice temper activity might get some to bid it up.

[bone]

Hartford's a bot. Brian already gave em the boot.