NBTHK Tosogu Shinsa 'FULLY BOOKED'

[paul tsubadotinfo]

NBTHK Tosogu Shinsa status

PLEASE COMMENT!

This month's application for the certification of sword fittings at NBTHK was filled within 39 minutes from the start of the application. Since NBTHK has reduced the amount of applications per Shinsa to 650 there is now a race to get your items into Shinsa. The losers have to wait another three months...

Is this the beginning of the end of the certification system overall? Is there a shortage of experts available to judge the authenticity of sword fittings?

It is sad to see this development and might it finally lead to a complete renunciation from the certification system overall?

 

Please comment your thoughts on this. How could we preserve the current certification system which is one of its kinds in the art world? Are you in favour of the system at all?

[FlorianB]

It’s the result of overestimation of papers. Today it seems every piece must have a certificate.
In my eyes the necessity of those is in question anyway not to mention discussions about the outcome.

 

The collectors should learn again to estimate the significance by own examination and in discussion with other collectors instead sticking to a paper.

 

Best,
Florian

[Katsujinken]

Quote

Is this the beginning of the end of the certification system overall? Is there a shortage of experts available to judge the authenticity of sword fittings?

No. 

[Steves87]

I don't know too much about the whole system, and I suspect most other people do not either. I could be completely wrong about that, but there appears to be no transparency to the whole system.

You pay a considerable load of dollars (especially for non-USD earners), the item disappears for a while, then it may come back with a paper that has been produced by an un-known quantity, using an un-known reference source (how old, how complete, how updated?). The papers usually confirm what is already known or produce a result that is questionable to many seasoned collectors. 

I think the paper system is important, but I can tell you now, it is in drastic need of reform. Pre internet, pre-web 2.0, or maybe even pre 2010 the system worked ok, now we have powerful crowd sourced information and web-based access to massive amounts of digitised Nihonto related information. If the papering system was as transparent as these powerful new-aged ways, it may have needed to increase its intake, not lessen it. Maybe papering is still totally superior to the new ways, but they aren't making a good case for it.

Its currently a petrol system in a hybrid world, I hope they see this before everything goes electric.

[Jussi Ekholm]

I have voiced my opinions and thoughts about NBTHK shinsa in few threads lately, even though I am a long time member who has never submitted anything to shinsa. 

 

I hate to talk swords, fittings etc. and money. Ideally I would leave money completely out and just discuss the items. However over the years NBTHK has achieved monopoly position in appraisal market and I don't think that is a good thing. Of course as I wrote examples at last post on this subject how much revenue NBTHK is creating on the shinsa. I think they have calculated the maximum numbers that they reduce the panic of deadlines while still keep the organization running financially on solid base. I believe they had to set the limits per session as more and more items were being submitted each time.

 

Hopefully NTHK / NTHK-NPO, JASMK etc. organizations would get more recognition by the community and could perhaps try to up their game a bit in the appraisal field. It is not a good thing if pretty much only certificates by 1 organization are held in value. For monetary value the NBTHK appraisal can carry huge difference, for example depending what attribution the mumei sword gets...

[DKR]

33 minutes ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

. For monetary value the NBTHK appraisal can carry huge difference, for example depending what attribution the mumei sword gets...

Mumei Blades are one side of the medal..........but even more important is it for signed Kodogu and for signed blades in the high end level !

It can be very risky to put a lot of money in signed objekt of art without any guarantee that the Signatur is OK. 

In the moment the only Papers which are more or less acceptable are the papers of the NBTHK.........in the high end level.

 

 

But like Stefes87 wrote  :

You pay a considerable load of dollars (especially for non-USD earners), the item disappears for a while, then it may come back with a paper that has been produced by an un-known quantity, using an un-known reference source (how old, how complete, how updated?).

 

This exactly what i was something thinking by myself. 

You want to know why it get not a paper or the item is rejected..as a fake.....Who can you ask ?

Especially if you are a foreign collector................for blades it is maybe possible to ask Tanobe sensei........and for kodogu ?

 

Who is in the Shinsa ?

What is the profession of the members in the Shinsa ?

Are they all studied and graduated Experts in their field ?

[Curran]

56 minutes ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

Hopefully NTHK / NTHK-NPO, JASMK etc. organizations would get more recognition by the community and could perhaps try to up their game a bit in the appraisal field. It is not a good thing if pretty much only certificates by 1 organization are held in value. For monetary value the NBTHK appraisal can carry huge difference, for example depending what attribution the mumei sword gets...

 

Like many things these days, there is a bit of Shrink-flation at the NBTHK.

Ideally, limiting the number means a bit return to more knowledgeable response of shinsa of years past.

Realistically, it is just another hurdle.

 

My opinion of NBTHK papers has slid the past decade. Now I check the dates of the papers and handicap the opinion.

True story:  

  [1]   a very good condition iron tsuba that I thought was nidai Kanshiro. Off to NBTHK shinsa and the results are "Higo".   Well, that is useless. As a friend said, "Use if to line a bird cage or the bottom of a cat box?"

  [2]  I sold the tsuba. New owner put it through NTHK-NPO shinsa.  They bounced it as "modern". Buyer asked me what I wanted to do? I said. "oh, I forgot it had NBTHK Hozon papers. You want them or want to return the tsuba?"

  [3]  He kept the tsuba and papers. Amidst a divorce, he sold the tsuba. It pops up in Japan with a dealer, with more recent papers NBTHK papers to Kanshiro.

  [4]  An authority shows it to me and says "shodai Kanshiro"

 

So, what do I make of all that?

Paper game, even more fiat than most currencies nowadays.

 

Do I still paper?  Kinda, sorta?  Is it worth it?   No, not really.  I get a lot of Horyu on anything big names I send in to the NBTHK. I then have to wait 6 months more and resubmit. So far about a 100% success rate on the second try, but it is a lot of hassle and agent expense to have to submit twice for what should be relatively easy match workmanship and signature to books.

 

 

[Franco D]

 

Perhaps the problem isn't the NBTHK limiting submissions, but rather too many people chasing papers.

Desire is the cause of suffering.

 

 

 

[Gakusee]

3 hours ago, Curran said:

 

Like many things these days, there is a bit of Shrink-flation at the NBTHK.

Ideally, limiting the number means a bit return to more knowledgeable response of shinsa of years past.

Realistically, it is just another hurdle.

 

My opinion of NBTHK papers has slid the past decade. Now I check the dates of the papers and handicap the opinion.

True story:  

  [1]   a very good condition iron tsuba that I thought was nidai Kanshiro. Off to NBTHK shinsa and the results are "Higo".   Well, that is useless. As a friend said, "Use if to line a bird cage or the bottom of a cat box?"

  [2]  I sold the tsuba. New owner put it through NTHK-NPO shinsa.  They bounced it as "modern". Buyer asked me what I wanted to do? I said. "oh, I forgot it had NBTHK Hozon papers. You want them or want to return the tsuba?"

  [3]  He kept the tsuba and papers. Amidst a divorce, he sold the tsuba. It pops up in Japan with a dealer, with more recent papers NBTHK papers to Kanshiro.

  [4]  An authority shows it to me and says "shodai Kanshiro"

 

So, what do I make of all that?

Paper game, even more fiat than most currencies nowadays.

 

Do I still paper?  Kinda, sorta?  Is it worth it?   No, not really.  I get a lot of Horyu on anything big names I send in to the NBTHK. I then have to wait 6 months more and resubmit. So far about a 100% success rate on the second try, but it is a lot of hassle and agent expense to have to submit twice for what should be relatively easy match workmanship and signature to books.

 

 

Curran

with all due respect…. Different game between tsuba and swords and also completely different at high sword level. 

 

The kodogu shinsa experts are different from the sword experts and different people do the shinsa.

And also the shinsa panel has been shrinking due to ill health and aging of the judges. We are down to two- three judges (and I heard the third one is unwell too). Hence the limits to submissions 

 

And so on and so on. 
 

So, folks, it is easy to criticise. It is not easy to design a sustainable and solid path forward. Not hypothetical, not idealistic (such as feed all certificates in an AI model and let it do the shinsa or out everything in a database for everyone to access on a global basis) but one that would work culturally, socially, morally and economically within Japan and in an old-fashioned body like the NBTHK. 

CF the attached photo of the recent 75 anniversary NBTHK symposium that I attended in 2023 and have a look at the NBTHK management (left of the podium) and the members. Draw your own conclusions about age, approach, appropriateness and so on.   
 

[Curran]

@Gakusee    I know.

The thread is posted in Tosogu, and @paul tsubadotinfo was highlighting the Tosogu shinsa.

 

The time and expense of tosogu papers vs what the items sale for has become too great a %.

Make the stenosis of # able to submit smaller, and the folly of it grows.

Add to it how random some of the results can be, and it is just a bit of pissing into the wind.

[Soshin]

2024 is my last great submission year for me as a collector. I have a fair number submitted this year (all confirmed accepted by the NBTHK via broker in Kamakura) that group represent the "bread-butter" of my collection. Next year and beyond I am going to focus only on a very few higher end pieces for the NTBHK Tosogu shinsa. I am in complete agreement with the points   @Gakusee  had made. I deeply respect @Curran, but do not completely agree with some of his points. Look at all those old people in the photo @Gakusee posted. It is fundamentally a demographic problem. This hobby's demographic problem is not at all limited to Japan in my opinion.          

[Spartancrest]

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

@Spartancrest can you edit that picture for him to be pushing a Katana Kake?

[Spartancrest]

8 hours ago, Infinite_Wisdumb said:

pushing a Katana Kake

And my wife tells me we are all out of AI [whatever that means?] and can I bring some back from the shop.

[Spartancrest]

Oh god she is back!

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

2 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

And my wife tells me we are all out of AI [whatever that means?] and can I bring some back from the shop.

Excellent 🤣🤣🤣

[SteveM]

That there are so many people wanting to authenticate their swords and tosogu is, in a way, a validation of the popularity of the current certification system. But it also exposes the limitations of the system. Its become a victim of its own popularity.  

 

There is a shortage of people who can act as competent judges, and the blame for this falls squarely on the NBTHK. One of their raisons d'etre is to educate the public about swords and fittings, and to this end they have study groups, seminars, publications, and a great deal of space in their sword museum is dedicated to lecture rooms (the three-story Sword Museum in Ryogoku, has two floors of study rooms and offices, and only one floor of exhibition space). They also know very well the looming problems of an ageing panel of judges, and the dwindling number of experts. So the failure of the NBTHK to educate and train a new and expanded panel of judges is a failure of the current management.

 

Who is the next Tanobe, the next Honma Junji, the next Sato Kanzan? Why hasn't the NBTHK fostered the development of the necessary expertise? 

 

In a related note, the museum isn't a tremendous improvement on its previous incarnation (when it was located in Yoyogi). As I said, the swords are on one floor of the three-floor structure. The information cards are in Japanese, except for the the swordsmith name and the dates, which are listed in English as well, with multiple spelling errors. It feels very amateurish. There is a QR code you can scan to get English explanations, but the English explanations use machine translations, and, again, it leaves one feeling that not a lot of effort has been made to accommodate foreign visitors. I should also say that maybe 1/4th of the visitors were non-Japanese on the day I went.  

 

Anyway, the appraisal system is, I think, necessary and beneficial to the collecting community, but some things at the NBTHK need to change to ensure it stays relevant to the times and the current population of collectors. 

[Steves87]

Is there a publicly accessible database of every papered item, including details and images? Or at least one containing the appraised items since digital word processing and digital photography has been used? That as a source, has the potential to change everything in the education of Nihonto... and drastically, especially for fittings. I haven't found it yet, so it either doesn't exist, isnt publically available (to members?), or it is advertised woefully.

I feel that this type of database may be counter productive to the financial business of the NBTHK, but if education or the future of appraisals is so important, then...?

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

Great idea @Steves87

[Jussi Ekholm]

To my knowledge there is no public database of papered items, and no private data for members either. Staff most likely has the access to data as they can check the certificates. I agree with much that has been said earlier on this thread and it is complicated matter. It is unfortunate that probably NBTHK wont see international members (or non-members) as huge source to invest in as we are so few in numbers (international members). Still I think if I had any good ideas I should try to send them directly to NBTHK. Unfortunately haven't gotten them yet

 

I never visited the old NBTHK museum so I cannot comment on that. I remember last summer I thought I would use the NBTHK reading room when visiting the museum but I was adviced I would need to call and reserve it in advance. Which I felt might be a bit complicated process with my very limited Japanese. As for comparison I was able to use Tokyo National Museum research facilities without prior reservations and got my hands on some books after filling in proper requests for them by their computer. I think I might try to reach out NBTHK if I could try to use their reading facilities this summer and see how that will go and what references I might be able to request.

 

NBTHK publishes the Jūyō & Tokubetsu Jūyō books for every session and they are a huge resource. I believe when visiting NBTHK reading room you could request for example specific Jūyō book to study. So living in Tokyo area it would be easy to study them, for us international folks it is much harder often needing to buy the book(s) if wanting to study the items.

[Soshin]

On 4/8/2024 at 10:41 AM, Jussi Ekholm said:

I think I might try to reach out NBTHK if I could try to use their reading facilities this summer and see how that will go and what references I might be able to request.

 

Thank you for your reply @Jussi Ekholm. Contacting the European branch of the NBTHK might be a good idea. Not sure as I haven't directly interacted with the group living in USA and being a member of the American branch of the NBTHK. I remember seeing many European visitors while I was there in November. While visiting Japan I always found in and around the hotel a delightful place to study while on vacation. This reminds me I need to get back to reading the new Umetada booked I picked up the NBTHK Japanese Sword Museum last November. While reading it on my vacation it made me appreciate the Umetada tsuba I have in my collection just that bit more.        

[Rivkin]

There are used to be a couple of guys here - a dealer and a tokyo resident who would respond with extremely vile personal attacks to anyone questioning papers. Reasons are obvious - papers are dealers' bread. Without them its hard to sell anything. If only because the buyer will come back in a month infuriated because he had shown it to "John, who everyone agrees is an expert" and received an appraisal that its saiha with multiple hagire.

Plus the majority of dealers like to cosplay deep scholars, and without papers it would become apparent they have not the slightest idea what they are dealing with.

So papers are here to stay permanently.

Their quality...

I used to enjoy taking a highly papered blade and submitting it to the first level papers to see what alternative pops up. Obviously choosing examples where alternative attribution is possible and probable.

The last Juyo I submitted to NBTHK, NTHK and NTHK NPO came back as Bungo, Echizen Seki and Kaga. Within the last five years unfortunately I had other similar experiences. With Miyano san and a few others on shinsa panel I had pretty good idea how they are judging blades, the modern teams - it feels like a lottery. At times it feels like they are down to like ten bucket attributions for the entire koto. There is a substantial variability session to session.

 

Every organization progresses from people who work because they are fanatics of what they do, to people who joined because it promises decent money, security and social status. In the first case the organization derives its fame from the individuals, in the second - individuals are defined by their position in the organization.

 

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

Great stuff Kirill