waki - Bishu osafune sukesada opposite side mei help

[shibeni]

Hello again,

 

I kindly ask you to help me read mei on waki - on the reverse side of nakago (one side is Bishu Osafune Sukesada) . Waki was sold on our local antique meeting, as a gimei blade. I will preare more photos of the blade.

Thank you for help!

 

Bojan S.

[Gunome]

Hello,

 

On this side of the nakago, it is the date. First kanji is missing on the photo.

? + "roku" 5 nen 2 gatsu

So read it as the febuary of the 5th year of ???roku

Maybe bunroku (1592-1596) ?

 

Regard

 

Sebastien V.

[Nobody]

Hi,

 

The year in the date inscription is not 5 but 6. The era cannot be at least Bunroku, because the last year of Bunroku is 5th.

[John A Stuart]

Eiroku has the same problem, maybe Genroku. John

[reinhard]

Eiroku has the same problem, maybe Genroku.

 

John, finding a ....roku nengo with enough years to fit in, is a somewhat ....unorthodox way to evaluate a smith. A mei: "Bishu Osafune SUKESADA", dating from Genroku period, written like that, is highly unlikely. The sword was sold as gimei, probably for good reasons. I guess we should leave it at that.

 

reinhard

[loui]

Judge the blade - not the signature.

 

Regards,

 

Louis

[John A Stuart]

Yes. I wasn't. John

[Gunome]

Hello,

 

Hi,

The year in the date inscription is not 5 but 6. The era cannot be at least Bunroku, because the last year of Bunroku is 5th.

You are right 五 is 5, 六 is 6. Sorry for this mistake.

 

Sebastien

[shibeni]

Hello,

sorry for missing kanji on picture with date inscription. Think that is Bunroku. Is that any chance not to be a gimei signature of Sukesada?

 

Thank you for helping,

Bojan S.

[shibeni]

Hello,

As probably a gimei signature, what kind of date is then writen on nakago.

 

Thank you for help,

Bojan S.

[Brian]

Bojan,

If the mei is gimei, then the nengo (date) is very likely false too.

So treat the blade as if it is mumei and judge it by the work itself?

 

Brian

[reinhard]

Hello,

As probably a gimei signature, what kind of date is then writen on nakago.

 

Nengo reads: "Bunroku 6th year......", which is about as silly a date as "January 32nd." (which makes it a gimei for sure).

 

reinhard

[Stephen]

which is about as silly a date as "January 32nd."

 

maybe it was Japanese leap year

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Looking at the whole look of this mei, i wonder if it can't be a kind of 4.

[reinhard]

i wonder if it can't be a kind of 4.

 

Not really. Only in the sense of: "...4 those unfamiliar with nengo"

 

reinhard

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

About dating oddness, it exists a tachi by Yoshimitsu (juyo bunkazai) and dated from Kenmu Yonnen..... There are only three years in Kenmu era.

[reinhard]

This is no oddness. Everything is going perfectly along the line. As Moriyama-san pointed out: There are four full years of Bunroku and and a fifth one shifting into Keicho first year. There cannot be a sixth year at all. - The YOSHIMITSU example you mention was made during Nambokucho. As you can see in Fujishiro's (or any other) Nengo compilation, Kemmu was a Nengo from 1334-35. In 1336 Go-Daigo changed the name to that of Engen, but the Northern dynasty kept it for two more years. It was only in 1338 that it adopted Ryakuo.

 

reinhard

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Maybe you are right.

 

The legimity of the northern calendar is a point of history which is still debated. Nanbokucho is not an official era, it is a part of Muromachi. but this is another theme.

 

Just for fun...For whom worked Yoshimitsu? Kojima Takanori? :lol:

[reinhard]

For whom worked Yoshimitsu? Kojima Takanori?

 

It doesn't matter. YOSHIMITSU is said to be a member of KANEMITSU's school and worked in Osafune. If you check nengo of Osafune smiths from Nambokucho era, you'll find them following the calendar of the Northern Court. Their nengo are: Shokei, Kemmu (until 1338), Ryakuo, Koei, Jowa, Kan'o, Bunna, Embun etc. You won't find any Engen, Kokoku, Shohei examples. - Kojima Takanori was born in Bizen and he fought for the case of the Southern Court under the orders of Nitta Yoshisada, but after Yoshisada's defeat at Minato-gawa (1336) he wasn't much in command of anything anymore. He fled to Shikokku and returned to Bizen in 1340. Besieged by Ashikaga Takauji, he went to Kyoto and fled from there to Shinano. - Nengo on Osafune swords during Namboku-Cho are valuable evidence for historians.

 

reinhard

[Jean]

Thanks Reinhard for this interesting post

[reinhard]

BTW, I wasn't fully correct. Instead of "Osafune smiths", I should have said: "Osafune mainline smiths", for there is an exception to the rule: The CHOGI group used Shohei (Southern Court) nengo for a short while and turned to Northern calendar again later. I don't know why. An explanation would be most welcome.

 

reinhard

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

There is two blades signed Bizen no kuni Osafune Kanemitsu and dated from Genko three. Coming back to the Yoshimitsu, an error is always possible.

[reinhard]

two blades signed Bizen no kuni Osafune Kanemitsu and dated from Genko three. Coming back to the Yoshimitsu, an error is always possible.

 

There are dated blades by KANEMITSU from Shokei first year (1332) and Genko third year (1333). This means: At the very beginning of Nambokucho's turmoil, Osafune mainline stood in the middle of confrontation. Soon afterwards (Kemmu era) they didn't use the southern calendar any more. Therefore YOSHIMITSU's nengo is no error, but important historical evidence.

 

There are no errors in nengo. Everybody knows what year he is living in and whom he is obliged to. The KANEMITSU group (and its member YOSHIMITSU) followed the Northern Court calendar from Kemmu days onwards without exception.

If you have an explanation for the CHOGI group, using Shohei nengo for a short time, I'm really curious to hear.

 

reinhard

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

*Errare humanum est* that is my opinion, not yours, i think you are a little bit too affirmative, man has already seen a missing kanji on a mei, so why not an error on a nengo? About Choji i don't know.

 

Reading the Nihonto Koza (Afu translation) i just noticed that he says about a blade signed by Chikakage and date from Kenmu Go nen "This is really unusual, Kenmu was from 1334 to 1336 at the latest"

 

ps have you never signed a bank check with a wrong date?

[Brian]

Since none of you has the ability just yet to travel back in time and ask...I say we will never know the answer and there is really very little point in debating this further.

However as a consequence of the debate, we did learn some fascinating and informative facts about the Northern Dynasty and dating, so thanks for that.

Unless there are further facts to add that are worth knowing..can we leave this one at that and not have to lock it?

 

Brian

[Jacques]

Hi

 

Sorry Brian, I have fun as i can

[reinhard]

I have fun as i can

 

This reminds me of the Black Knight in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" ("only a flesh wound!")

 

No substantial news from my side, BTW, but I say "NI".... and I want a shrubbery!

 

reinhard

[Jean]

Reinhard

 

Ask the Rabbit but be carefull :lol:

[reinhard]

Thanks for the advice, Jean. I'm still carrying the holy handgrenade of Antioch.

 

reinhard