Jump to content

Question about this sword?


Barrett Hiebert
 Share

Recommended Posts

Good day,

 

Does this sword have a healthy cutting edge between the hamon?

 

https://japanesesword-shoubudou.com/products/detail.php?product_id=157

 

Also, this sword would eventually be used on foot if fallen off the horse or on foot to cut the horsed samurai?

 

PS. Thanks Chris W for the reminder.

 

Best regards,

 

Barrett Hiebert

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Barrett.

 

Forgive me, I am not quite sure what you are asking.  As the sword is Juyo and has an oshigata one would assume that the hamon in the oshigata is a good representation of the features of the sword.  The images on the web site are limited and they do not show clearly the detail of the hamon under the hadori polish, but then again there is not a lot to see for this particular sword. 

 

If you are contemplating a purchase at this level then I am sure the dealer would be happy to supply extra images for you.

 

If I have missed the point of your question then please do elucidate.

 

All the best.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Geraint,


No, you didn’t miss anything. I do have a video from the consignor. I am waiting on more detailed pictures. I just wanted to double check. I thought that one of the pre-determining factor for Juyo relevant to this sword was to have a  healthy amount of space between the hamon edge and cutting edge. Just seen different blades with more space between the two, so I am trying to understand the nuances.

 

Thanks for answering my question.

 

Best regards,

 

Barrett Hiebert

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Barrett

As this was originally a tachi presumably, it would have been used on horseback. As with many blades from the Kamakura and Nanbokucho period it has been shortened to a katana.

 

I don't mean to be patronising or offensive (not knowing your experience with nihonto) but if you're contemplating buying this blade I'm not sure why your question is relevant to the workmanship or why it would affect your decision to buy or not? 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Barrett,

 

The blade is 700 or so years old and so won’t be in its original condition but the quality of workmanship and state of preservation have been judged good enough to pass Juyo shinsa.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mywei,

 

If I’m going to buy something I have to be assured of its practical abilities, for kata purposes. This was previously a tachi though has been shortened down, correct? So I’d be able to use it on foot as I’ll never get a horse.
 

Shugyosha,

 

Understood.

 

Best regards,

 

Barrett Hiebert

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Barrett it's obviously not my place to tell you what or what not to do but I wouldnt recommend doing any kata or swinging around with this 700 year old Juyo blade! Certainly not any tameshigiri.

There are plenty of shinsakuto by modern Smiths that can be custom made to your height to use with kata etc. Please 🙏

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The thickness of the hamon also has nothing to do with the quality. The older the sword, the more it has been polished and many top swords have the hamon almost at the blade edge.
A wider gap has nothing to do with the shinsa result or the quality of the sword and tells you not much about the sword at all. Different schools also had different thicknesses of the hamon itself. Research hoso-suguha or chu-suguha.
 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mywei and Rokujuro. Sent you both the same message to remain civil.

 

Brian, again I’m just asking to understand the nuances between hamon types and definitive factors that make a blade Juyo. I am aware of the qualifications for such and the implications, at least generally. These such swords as you state were re-polished much due to being heavily used. I’m just trying to understand better. Hence why I’m asking questions of such an inquisitive nature.

 

Best regards to all,

 

Barrett Hiebert 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They are being very civil Barrett, promise! This is a juyo blade. This is something that is meant to be treated as a high-end work of art. You wouldn't buy a Ferrari to drive it in a demolition derby, would you? They're just worried you're considering using it for something other than as an artwork to be displayed and appreciated.

 


But if you're looking for something more 'practical', then for the money, you would be better served to have a shinsakuto made for you to your exact specifications. I can think of several reasons for this (balance, handling, knowing how it is constructed). With a 700-some year old blade, you are taking a big gamble with not only your money but your safety too. Even modern iaido and tamegashiri masters would not use such a blade, they tend to stick with weighted alloy for kata and shinsakuto for cutting. If you want something expensive and showy, there are many modern smiths who could make something far more visually appealing to your precise needs.

Please consider what they say as safety advice, both for you and the blade. Juyo blades are precious, and if an accident were to happen, it may well mean one less blade or wielder! Both cases are tragic.

As for the blade itself, I think it is a fine piece of art, worthy of being called juyo.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pietro Paris,

 

See private message. Further too, that was 7 years ago. I have post concussion syndrome from service. I can't spar. I can still take hits in service but not for such recreational activities. Plus all the people at the only local HEMA school are hobbyists, academics not warriors. They are interpreting HEMA from treatises. While I do have Noble House Kenjutsu where I live I already know of their fraudulent history, and while they were all very nice and inviting, sensei included, it's not my cup of tea.

 

Best regards,

 

Barrett Hiebert

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Somehow I doubt that the sword lovers in this forum will be reassured by the fact that you can’t spar. They worry that you would want to use a 700yo Juyo-level blade for any kind of practical exercise. At least that is what your sentence below suggests:

 

“If I’m going to buy something I have to be assured of its practical abilities, for kata purposes. This was previously a tachi though has been shortened down, correct? So I’d be able to use it on foot as I’ll never get a horse.”

 

To give you an example, I’ve heard that serious collectors in Japan would stuff a paper napkin in their mouth when examining a high-quality blade, to avoid damaging it with their breath...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pietro Paris,

 

I can't spar because I took 19 stitches to the face from improvised weapons, while in service.

 

Not because I am incapable of handling any weapon, modern or of antiquity of any culture.

 

I mean no disrespect. I asked for your opinions. Your perceptions, expectations are just that, your opinions.

 

If I can handle a sharp modern European sword I can handle a sharp nihonto safely, and I will be even more exponentially safe because of its provenance and status as an art weapon.

 

Best regards,

 

Barrett Hiebert

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suspect you misunderstood my comment, it does not really matter here why you cannot spar. What I meant is that, in general, a 700yo Juyo-level blade should not be sparred with by anybody, nor should it be used for any other kind of practical exercise. If I misunderstood your sentences about "kata purposes" and "use it on foot", so much the better. Otherwise, I don't think this is a topic that will find much sympathy in this forum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pietro Paris,

 

That is fine. See my private message.

 

And to note I was not dissuaded by the consignor as to my intentions.

 

I do chuckle inwardly that a sword that was meant for battle is not even allowed to be used in even the slightest capacity according to its design.

 

Samurai of the day wouldn't hesitate to do katas with such a blade. That is truely keeping context coinciding with its intended purpose from a modern warriors perspective and always an academic second.

 

Best regards,

 

Barrett Hiebert

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gee...the seller neglected to turn away a $23,600 sale by advising you that your intentions are ill advised?? How odd.
:roll:

Anyone intending to use a Juyo 700 year old sword needs to seriously re-evaluate exactly what they are trying to prove. ONE scratch, and the entire sword needs a new polish. So much for surviving another 700 years.
You are forcing us to get more and more blunt.
 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pietro Paris,

 

I had remembered it differently being I am in a CAD currency so I wasn't familiar with the US equivalency of the top of my head.

 

A purely human mix up. Plus I'm on nights and have been up 18 hours.

 

It is a simple misunderstanding exacerbated by my lack of sleep.

 

Oh so sorry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Barrett, as a fellow Canadian, let me share with you, that in Canada, in almost all transactions for Japanese items among collectors, are priced in USD. We have a sword club in Toronto and at meetings members have things for sale. Almost all are priced in USD. Same holds true when I sell to friends locally.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

B. Hennick,

 

I was unaware of that nuance. Thank you for the clarification.

 

I just feel as the criticism, most lately from Brian specifically, to which he emphasized now having being blunt, which I undoubtedly did read earlier in the thread, had been condescendingly imparted.

 

I have done my best to reign in my temper. It has always been challenging as I am a man of passion.

 

Really the mix up is irrelevant and miniscule in the enormity of life.

 

I am treating all people who have partaken in this thread with respect.

 

I expect the same from everyone, in return.

 

Best regards,

 

Barrett Hiebert

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sure, the USD-CAD mixup is completely understandable and it's not the point here, I showed the exchange rate only because you seemed to find it important in your reply to Brian. I suggest that you focus instead on the second part of Brian's post. A blade used in practice will almost inevitably be subject to scratches (e.g., when sheathing/unsheathing) and moisture (breath, sweat!) which in the not-so-long term will cloud its artistic features. One is then left with the choice between leaving it in its ruined state, or having it polished again. However, a new polish will remove some metal, and bring the sword one step further away from its original state, and one step closer to tiredness and "death". What you should understand is that collectors here don't view themselves as "users" of their sword, but rather as caretakers who accompany the sword in a short leg of its journey through the centuries. Perhaps "Samurai of the day wouldn't hesitate to do katas with such a blade", but they could get a new one from the smiths of the day if they ruined it. Today, a 700yo Juyo blade is irreplaceable. You might not agree with this point of view from your "modern warrior perspective", but once again you won't find much help or sympathy here if you keep talking about doing kata with an antique blade.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have been a student of JSA for 22 years.  The vast majority of my practice is still done with a simple bokken.  For iai kata, a Japanese-made iaito from alloy is more than sufficient.  For tameshigiri, there are also tons of good options, none of which involve using an antique.  In those 2 decades, I have met many hundreds of other students of the sword.  NONE -- not a single student, regardless of skill -- would contemplate using an antique sword of this caliber for any kind of training.  The oldest blade I've seen used in JSA context were some WW2-era showato and gendaito, and even that very, very rarely.

 

Antique nihonto are finite in supply.  There are no more being made.  Arguably, they are getting fewer in number every year due to amateur "polishing," poor preservation techniques, neglect, theft, abuse, etc.  Please heed the well-intended advice and feedback you're getting and not use an antique for training.  It's just unnecessary and not a good way to preserve these irreplaceable works of art.

 

 

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pietro Paris and JH Lee and all others,

 

It’s been incessantly over said innumerable times. I am not wasting my time anymore having it as a point of contention. I have said my peace and I tire of this discourse. Frankly, I don’t have to heed any advice by anyone here to the letter. They are guidelines not hard and fast sacrosanct  rules. Anyways, it was an excellent exercise none the less in discourse. Please, moderators delete this thread. I bear no ill will towards anyone and have done my best to remain as amicable as able. Thank you all for your input.  As always I take it into consideration though I am under no obligation to follow per say to the letter. I am my own man, gentleman and can make my own decisions. I wish you all well.

 

Best regards,

 

Barrett Hiebert

  • Downvote 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Barrett, I go back to my earlier point: You wouldn't buy a Ferrari to drive it in a demolition derby, would you? You wouldn't use an ancient Viking axe to cut wood or batter down a shield, would you?

If you would, then I think every seller of antique blades who has an iota of respect for what they're selling should be warned about you. People who think ancient Japanese blades should still be able to fulfill their original purpose are often the reason why less and less of these beautiful things survive to the next generation. This is a forum for the PRESERVATION and study of nihonto. Please heed the well-meaning advice. There's a thousand reasons why you shouldn't, the literal only reason why I can see anyone wanting to use one is some misplaced sense of ego. No one here is being rude, disrespectful, or angry with you; however, we all share the ideal that nihonto are meant to be preserved so that future generations can enjoy them. This community is the most respectful group of people I've ever seen; rules and etiquette are part of the stock and trade here. Yes, people will repeat the same above points in an attempt to dissuade you from destroying a beautiful work of art, the equivalent to any Dutch or Flemish painting.

Please, for your sake and the sake of future generations, get a shinsakuto or alloy blade for any practical use you might engage in.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chris W,

 

Let’s just end the discussion please. You’ve all made your point over and over again ad naseum. I don’t have a misplaced sense of ego nor am I unable to understand the juvenile analogies. It’s moronic. Consignors everywhere need not be warned about me. I will heed the forums advice to appease their hearts. That is the one concession I shall make. You also have been replied to in private email.

 

I bear no ill will towards anyone and I am thankful for the critique.

 

Peace be unto you all. Moderators lock, delete thread. My honour and reputation remains intact. Deeds not words.

 

Best regards,

 

Barrett Hiebert

  • Like 1
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...