Is this nakago a red flag?

[ribendao]

Hello all, 

 

Saw this sword for sale locally. The pictures aren't great but from what I can tell the Hamon looks ok. The only problem is the seller is claiming it to be from the 1500s but the patina on the Nakago doesn't look right and the signature looks sloppy as hell. I am still a novice but am I correct in my assessment so far? Is this sword worth the risk?

 

 

[Shugyosha]

Yes you’re right - it’s a wartime blade at best. I can see a stamp of remains of one and it has the usual chippy signature associated with Gunto. 

[ribendao]

Yeah I knew something was off about it. The temper line still looks nice and irregular though.  What do you suspect the market price for this kind of gunto would be? 

[vajo]

I'm not sure but i think the stamp is faked.

Can you make a better picture of it?

 

The nakago without the mei and that stamp looks well made not bad. But the shape of the blade looks not good. The kissaki looks terrible.

I would stay away from that sword.

[ribendao]

Thanks Vajo, These are the pictures the seller provided. I requested more clear ones but haven't gotten a response. But judging from what you guys said and my gut feeling I think I will pass on this sword.

 

Thanks again.

[16k]

Wartime blade made in Seki. Nakago with Takanoha and sanbonsugi typical of Seki blades during WW2. Probably oil tempered too.

[ribendao]

Thanks 16K i looked up other examples of these Seki swords and they do look similar. Its just I have never seen mountings like this one. Most Seki blades seem to be in what look like Type98 Shin Gunto mountings.

[vajo]

50 minutes ago, 16k said:

Wartime blade made in Seki. Nakago with Takanoha and sanbonsugi typical of Seki blades during WW2. Probably oil tempered too.

 

I think not JP.

This is not a Japanese work. The shape of the boshi is very crude.

 

Maybe under the habaki you find a welded nakago?

[Shugyosha]

Good spot Chris - I only looked at the tang. 

[16k]

Yeah, me too, however, I think it could be a broken tip repaired on the field... maybe?

[Shugyosha]

Dunno, I’ll leave that to the gunto guys but I wouldn’t buy in that condition (even if a genuine WWII blade).

[Dave R]

The mounts are odd, the blade tip is at best reshaped, and I have seen nakago' welded onto  dodgy blades in the past. There may very well be genuine elements to this package but why buy when there are so many issues. Walk away, and don't turn round.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Mounts are recent chinese junk IMO, would stay far away from this one.

[SteveM]

Seki sword. Looks broken and then given a quick and dirty repair job.

Mei is subject of some disagreement on the internet. Smith name is Yoshiomi, but the second kanji of the family name is...debatable. 

 

Looks to me like 武正義臣作 (Takemasa Yoshiomi saku)

 

However some sites claim it is 武山義臣作 (Takeyama Yoshiomi saku)

 

Maybe someone out there has more info. 

 

Takemasa

https://www.togishi-touken.jp/研磨料金表/お受け出来ない御刀見本/

Takeyama

 

 

[vajo]

Steve that is a very interesting link - thanks for sharing.

Btw: He said that the sakura showa stamp indicates that the stamped sword can be used in the coldest regions of manchuria. I read on Ohmuras site from swords which made for temperatures under -45° celsius but that the sakura stamp indicates that is new for me.

 

[Dave R]

7 hours ago, vajo said:

Steve that is a very interesting link - thanks for sharing.

Btw: He said that the sakura showa stamp indicates that the stamped sword can be used in the coldest regions of manchuria. I read on Ohmuras site from swords which made for temperatures under -45° celsius but that the sakura stamp indicates that is new for me.

 

 

I find that claim to be a little dubious. As a stamp it is fairly common and has other documented reasons for being applied. There were swords specifically made for low temperature use, and they were marked as such, not just with a sakura.

[Bruce Pennington]

8 hours ago, vajo said:

He said that the sakura showa stamp indicates that the stamped sword can be used in the coldest regions of manchuria.

It would be interesting if one of our Japanese speakers would use his contact link to ask him his source for that.  I recall reading a discussion where the cold testing was done on blades, even showing pictures of bent blades, but there was no mention of stamping those that passed.  I'm sure the Army Sword division had testing requirements that could possibly have cold temp standards, but I doubt the stamp was specific to that characteristic.  I also don't believe that ALL swords were impact tested.  As I understand it, a smith was required to submit 1 or 2 blades for testing.  If passed, then all of his work was accepted.

 

It doesn't sound like he understands the history of the stamping requirement very well.

[ribendao]

Thanks everyone for the input. I learned a lot. The seller ended up selling the blade. I sure am glad I consulted all of you before being impulsive and buying it. 

[16k]

55 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

It would be interesting if one of our Japanese speakers would use his contact link to ask him his source for that.  I recall reading a discussion where the cold testing was done on blades, even showing pictures of bent blades, but there was no mention of stamping those that passed.  I'm sure the Army Sword division had testing requirements that could possibly have cold temp standards, but I doubt the stamp was specific to that characteristic.  I also don't believe that ALL swords were impact tested.  As I understand it, a smith was required to submit 1 or 2 blades for testing.  If passed, then all of his work was accepted.

 

It doesn't sound like he understands the history of the stamping requirement very well.

This would be that article Bruce:

 

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Nihonto_cold_weather.html

 

Also, a sword made for cold weather:

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Ura_Nihon_no_Toko.html