Show Us Your High Class Gunto

[Michael 67]

I am at the beginning of my research on Nobuyoshi and am grateful for all the information and am able to learn, if I have seen correctly.
Rai was only used from 1673. An Ichi was added after 1688. 

[Bryce]

G'day Bruce,

Different guy,

My blade is signed Kiku Shinano no kami Fujiwara Nobuyoshi. Michael's is signed Kiku Ichi Echizen no kami Minamoto Rai Nobuyoshi. My guys is the shodai, Michaels's guy is considered the sendai. I am no expert and it is very difficult to differentiate between the Shodai and Nidai. The NBTHK rarely if ever differentiate between the generations. I have seen an NTHK paper specifying the nidai, but the nakago is so corroded you can't make much out. They both signed pretty much the same. Tsuruta san from AOIJapan thinks he can tell the difference and says mine is by the shodai.

Cheers,

Bryce

 

[John C]

25 minutes ago, Bryce said:

very difficult to differentiate between the Shodai and Nidai.

I agree. My Nobuyoshi is papered without distinction, however the exact wording of the mei was not used by 1st Gen so my assumption is second gen. In addition the quality of second gen seems lower than 1st gen and far below 3rd Gen (Echizen).

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks guys, that helps!  I've annotated the files.

[IJASWORDS]

I pulled a few swords from the cupboard tonight to inspect and enjoy. This KANETOSHI (Murayama) Star Stamp, July 1944 in late war RS mounts always demands attention. In WW2 polish, the hada and hamon in Ichimonji style JUKA CHOJI, is like viewing a nice piece of art, something new always catches your eye. For Bruce's benefit, I tried to do my best on the MUNE stamps. 

I have probably posted photos before, but my new phone camera and LED lights show much more detail. 

If I had the time and money, this sword would be a prime candidate for a touch up polish.  

[Yukihiro]

This is truly a magnificent hamon!

 

A question I would like to ask is what are the characteristics of a wartime polish? I find it hard to distinguish between what is WW2 polish and what could be termed a post-war amateur polish.

[IJASWORDS]

Basically a war time polish in my view, is the original polish that was on the sword at the time of capture or surrender. Of course this polish could be spectacular or utilitarian, or could be the result of a rough field polish during action by the soldier. In any case, you could substitute the term original polish, or as found polish.   

[Bruce Pennington]

Neil,

Yes I have that one on file, and it's the only example I have of that mystery stamp at the bottom of the 3.

 

Didier,

The wartime polish seems to have a dull, mirror-like finish.  It often will even obscure the hamon.  You can usually tell it's original by all the scratches, dings, and such on the surface of the blade.  Bubba, post-war, buffer jobs are usually quite shiny mirror.

[BANGBANGSAN]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Neil,

Yes I have that one on file, and it's the only example I have of that mystery stamp at the bottom of the 3.

 

Didier,

The wartime polish seems to have a dull, mirror-like finish.  It often will even obscure the hamon.  You can usually tell it's original by all the scratches, dings, and such on the surface of the blade.  Bubba, post-war, buffer jobs are usually quite shiny mirror.

@Bruce Pennington

 

That 特 (Special)mark is one of the Extraordinary stamps.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

That 特 (Special)mark is one of the Extraordinary stamps.

Dang!  Good catch, Trystan!  I originally had this down (possibly from you?) in the Stamps doc as "特 = Toku (Special)", but now I can connect it to this chart.  Do you know exactly what it means?  "Specially adopted on basis of Inspection Rules Art. 11", but what does that mean to us or about the sword?

[BANGBANGSAN]

9 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Dang!  Good catch, Trystan!  I originally had this down (possibly from you?) in the Stamps doc as "特 = Toku (Special)", but now I can connect it to this chart.  Do you know exactly what it means?  "Specially adopted on basis of Inspection Rules Art. 11", but what does that mean to us or about the sword?

I do not have content for article 11, maybe Thomas can help?

[Kiipu]

On 3/16/2024 at 7:39 PM, BANGBANGSAN said:

I do not have content for article 11, maybe Thomas can help?

 

I no not recall ever running across section 11 第十一條 of Heiki saiyō kensa kitei 兵器採用検査規程.

[Bruce Pennington]

Ok, thanks.  So, it remains a mystery.

[IJASWORDS]

This sword could live just as happily live in the Nihonto section as well as the Military. A May 1941 (Takahashi) YOSHIMUNE, in the less common aluminium saya, All the fittings are matching numbered "1538", indicating an original complete sword. 

His lineage as a swordsmith is without question, his brother SADATSUGU was a "Living National Treasure". 

This BIZEN tradition sword has a nice hamon and hada, the photos do it no justice. 

The MEI translates to "The God of war, Minamoto YOSHIMUNE made this". 

I share this sword because I spent years trying to find a top example of his work as I think he was one of the top Gendai sword makers. 

I acknowledge using pages from Slough.  

[mecox]

More on the Takahashi brothers to support Neil's post

 

[Franco D]

2 hours ago, IJASWORDS said:

This sword could live just as happily live in the Nihonto section as well as the Military.

 

Unless further evidence is shown other than these images "this sword" looks not to be hand forged from tamahagane nor water quenched. 

[IJASWORDS]

Maybe the photos are not as perfect as I indicated in the description. BUT it is traditionally made with very clear hamon, hada and importantly habuchi. 

If you want evidence, get on a plane and come and see it for yourself, otherwise.........  

[Franco D]

6 hours ago, IJASWORDS said:

Maybe the photos are not as perfect as I indicated in the description. BUT it is traditionally made with very clear hamon, hada and importantly habuchi. 

If you want evidence, get on a plane and come and see it for yourself, otherwise.........  

 

I don't need to see evidence, I've already seen enough. 

Oh, by the way, one of the very first swords I was offered when I began collecting was a Yoshimune that was far better but I passed on it having seen excellent Koto and Edo period swords.   

As you were.

 

 

[Brian]

Don't think there is any need for that, bit harsh?
Looks like a lovely sword to me, with excellent fittings from a very good smith that is highly rated.
I'd be happy to own it.

[IJASWORDS]

Thanks Brian, I post the occasional sword to share my enjoyment whilst I have it in my care, until the next generation can acquire and preserve it. 

I know iPhone photos are not always the best way to show off a sword's attributes, but I do my best. 

If I have ever had a question about a sword, I do it by PM, in a polite way. 

There are many folk out there that have an interest in Japanese military swords and GENDAI, and not a day passes that I am not on the phone, email or SMS to one. And thanks to "whatsapp" many overseas (hi Bruce!). 

For many collectors on this forum, the Military section is their first go-to area. Keep it positive, polite and constructive.   

[oli]

Hi Neil, 

 

for good Photos you only need good light. As a beginner i am glad to started with a Gendaito. 

There made some nice blades in this time, and i learned a lot about Go-kaden 

 

Regards

Oli

[Franco D]

10 hours ago, Brian said:

Don't think there is any need for that, bit harsh?

 

Comment noted and taken.

 

Look, we all like to think of our own as something special. And there is nothing wrong with that. However, care should be taken to keep enthusiasm within the bounds of reality and not let it lead to complacency. 

 

Regards

[Matsunoki]

I cannot see any boundless enthusiasm nor any complacency in Neil’s comments or description.
I can however see some ill-considered and bizarrely unjustified comments elsewhere. 

[Bruce Pennington]

4 hours ago, Franco D said:

care should be taken to keep enthusiasm within the bounds of reality

Brian, I'm going to comment, but this whole interchange should probably deleted as it detracts greatly from the most excellent tone and intent of this entire thread.

 

Franco,

So, here we go.  Obviously YOUR definition of enthusiasm is the Prime measure.  Please create an Enthusiasm scale, smith down one side and intensity across the top.  You can then rate each of our entusiasms with a "A1" or "F7" and keep us all in check.  I was clearly under the mistaken impression that my (and everyone elses') joy hinged upon our own personalities and collecting preferences.  Glad to know The Enthusiasm God has arrived.

[Franco D]

Wow. You guys just don't get it and obviously you don't care to get it. 

My mistake. So, I'll just leave things be. 

As you were.

 

[oli]

44 minutes ago, Franco D said:

Wow. You guys just don't get it and obviously you don't care to get it. 

My mistake. So, I'll just leave things be. 

As you were.

 

You startet it with disinformation, i think you say fake news in USA. And yes there also nice Blades from Koto or Edo Time. Not shure what your problem is, but this shouldn't discuss here.

[PNSSHOGUN]

1 hour ago, Franco D said:

Wow. You guys just don't get it and obviously you don't care to get it. 

My mistake. So, I'll just leave things be. 

As you were.

 

Rather than cryptic remarks, a detailed explanation on your claim that the sword above is not Gendai would be appreciated.

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, oli said:

. You guys just don't get it and obviously you don't care to get it. 

Get what?

[lonely panet]

Stop hijacking my thread with pointless bickering. Post sweet minty gunto or go to the iz

[Franco D]

12 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Rather than cryptic remarks, a detailed explanation on your claim that the sword above is not Gendai would be appreciated.

 

First, let me be perfectly clear, I'M NOT SAYING THIS SWORD IS NOT TRADITIONALLY MADE!

What I am saying is that based on the images I see no evidence that it is traditionally made. 

Now, Neil has said that poor photography is the problem. That's plausible and acceptable if that is the case. It may also be the case that the polish does this sword no favors. It may in fact be a combination of both poor photography and poor polish, each being understandable. A war time polish is not an art polish and anyone having tried taking pics of a Japanese sword understands the difficulty. Back to the sword. Neil says clear hamon. Sorry, but the images do not show a clear hamon. In fact, there are sections in the images that do reflect and are not that bright. Yes, it could still be nioi, but of what quality? Even more than that there are sections in the images of the hamon that look very shadowy without any indication of reflection. What is that about? Yes, it could be camera angle and or a light problem. Still, it raises questions. "Show me the beef." Show me the nioi? 

Ok, now to hada? What I'm seeing in the images might be, could be, machined steel rather than  tamahagane. Again, "where's the beef?" 

Or at the very least let's hear a verbal description. The nioi/nie is .... , the hada is .... , there's this activity .... . You know, "show and tell."  Tell us what makes this sword a Yoshimune besides the mei?

 

Collect what you like but know what you collect.  

 

Regards