Tsuba base iron

[kissakai]

I would appreciate any views about the following

 

NMB members always say to read as much as possible but only having one Robinson tsuba book I was quite happy to use this. I knew how to determine schools and ages, happy days. Now I have quite a few tsuba books and many catalogues and now know nothing!!!!!!!!

 

Edit: Generally I can assume that good tsuba can only be made from good iron & vice versa so I'm keen to try to understand this fundamental point.

The books I have talk about the base metal but no close ups where the differences can be seen

 

As it can be overwhelming to absorb all a tsuba attributes, age, style, patina etc I thought I’d look into the base metal and a couple of other features.

Looking at the R Haynes Catalogue #4 I’m just more confused.

 

These are some examples:

 

1001 - Triple ‘S’ curve fold

This I assume is where the metal is folded twice

 

1243 – Kettle makers casting. These were cast from the last drops of molten metal after the kettles were made

How on earth can someone be so specific and if they can how can a laymen spot this type

 

1325 – Exceptionally fine iron plate with a liquid feeling

Means nothing to me

 

1046 – Factory iron plate

1201 – Factory plate, well forged

How can I tell if factory iron plate is used and how well it was produced?

 

1014 - Sand iron

1210 – Refined sand iron

1190 – Well forged sand iron

How can I tell if it is sand iron plate that is used and how well it was produced?

 

1055 – Very hard iron plate

The only way I can tell if the metal is hard it to tap it and tell by the ring

 

1092 – Rich plate is pure Momoyama period

Can age be determined by the metal used?

 

1169 – Iron of Owari quality

1041 – Iron of the Saotome

I’m sure a school may be determined by the metal but how

 

1017 – Hitsuana, Higo style

1027 – Hituana, Jingo school, Higo style

1093 – Hitsuana is pure Shoami

Does anyone have images of differing hitsuana schools?

 

1249 – Early casting

I know how derogative NMB members can be when talking castings

I understand that some casting are finally chiselled but other are left as cast

I have a cast tsuba that has a quite porous surface so I hold this in very low esteem

 

Don’t even start me on bones

I bought this one just after I started collecting tsuba and was sold as:

‘fine tekkotsu showing on mimi’

 

 

All I can see is corrosion – I must get out more!

 

PS

1011 – The sukashi is not known and the author asks for suggestions. I know what they look like to me but it would be too rude to say!

 

 

Grev UK

[ROKUJURO]

Grev,

 

you probably know that a reply to your post may require to write a book! It is difficult to give exhaustive answers, the more as not everything is known. Authors of articles sometimes just give their opinions about a manufacturing method, and in many cases these opinions, once read in an 'important' book, spread around and become accepted information, right or wrong.

 

Let me start with your depicted TSUBA. It may well have TEKKOTSU but this is not visible in the photo. The corrosion is predominant, but the TSUBA itself might be nice (or might have been nice....).

 

In the following I will try to answer some of your points.

 

.....1001 - Triple ‘S’ curve fold. This I assume is where the metal is folded twice. Possibly three foldings, depending on what the author wanted to express. Could be nine layers at the end.

 

1243 – Kettle makers casting. These were cast from the last drops of molten metal after the kettles were made. How on earth can someone be so specific and if they can how can a layman spot this type? In theory, when you prepare a kettle casting, you may put TSUBA molds in the reach and pour surplus iron in. But this is based on the assumption that TSUBA were cast at all. Late cast copies existed but they were not meant for use in battle but for decoration only. Cast iron is useless for battle without a special decarburizing procedure.

 

1325 – Exceptionally fine iron plate with a liquid feeling. Means nothing to me. This relates to a polished but not even surface. The process is called YAKITE SHITATE – 焼手仕立 or YAKINAMASHI 焼き鈍し in the literature. It is believed to be created by heating the TSUBA up to almost melting temperature. Technically this is nonsense. It is also believed to produce the TEKKOTSU, but you will not find a satisfying answer how they think this works.

 

1046 – Factory iron plate

1201 – Factory plate, well forged

How can I tell if factory iron plate is used and how well it was produced? You cannot tell unless you see traces of folding which is not necessary with factory iron. It is just plain 'lifeless' iron

 

1014 - Sand iron.

1210 – Refined sand iron

1190 – Well forged sand iron

How can I tell if it is sand iron plate that is used and how well it was produced? If you could polish the material the Japanese way (TOGI) you might see a structure like HADA. This could be a hint for a well forged plate. In most cases it cannot be seen unless you have some traces of laminations. Expressions like 'sand iron' are not correct. There is an iron ore called SATETSU, found on the shores of some rivers which is the base material of the traditional iron/steel making process in the TATARA. The raw steel is called TAMAHAGANE. It is quite inhomogenuous and has to be refined by repeated folding, fire-welding, and hammering. The end product might then be called well forged. Many older TSUBA are believed to have been made from left-over material from sword or armour making.

 

1055 – Very hard iron plate. The only way I can tell if the metal is hard it to tap it and tell by the ring. No, this does not work. I can make any iron plate ring. Hardness is judged by the way the steel reacts on an impression of a hard pointed tip (usually a diamond tip with a standardized weight on top, used in a machine to test the HRC/Rockwell hardness). Usually, TSUBA have not been hardened, even if made of good steel.

 

1092 – Rich plate is pure Momoyama period. Can age be determined by the metal used? Difficult. What is 'a rich plate'? Unless you can see the naked surface, you can only guess. In may cases it works the other way round: You have a MOMOYAMA period TSUBA, and you know that they had then a good material supply and worked very carefully

 

1169 – Iron of Owari quality

1041 – Iron of the Saotome. I’m sure a school may be determined by the metal but how. You can only tell by the metal surface. An even surface without flaws and delaminations (often MIGAKI-BO) is a proof of well processed steel

 

1017 – Hitsuana, Higo style

1027 – Hitsuana, Jingo school, Higo style

1093 – Hitsuana is pure Shoami

Does anyone have images of differing hitsuana schools? Someone will have pictures

 

1249 – Early casting. I know how derogative NMB members can be when talking castings. I understand that some castings are finally chiselled but others are left as cast. I have a cast tsuba that has a quite porous surface so I hold this in very low esteem. My understanding is that there is no early iron casting in Japan. Chiselling cast iron is perhaps possible, but it will be very coarse

 

Don’t even start me on bones.....

Grev, I am working on this subject, and the results of my research are not final at this point of time. In my understanding, many of the descriptions of TEKKOTSU are just guesses and lack practical experience and knowledge. I have found that TEKKOTSU is a feature of inhomogenuous steel (which does not necessarily mean a lack of strength!), being processed in a special way (YAKITE KUSARASHI) after forging.

 

I hope this helps a bit.

[Brian]

Grev

All very good questions...not one of them isn't valid. The only answer I can really give is that after a few years of study..I cannot answer many of them either. I guess that is what differentiates people who have been studying iron and tsuba most of their lives, and those of us just looking at a tsuba with the average pair of eyes.

I have no doubt that studying iron tsuba for many years will allow someone to be able to tell good, forged iron from mass produced plate. I'm guessing the way the patina develops also helps a lot. All I know is that on one tsuba I bought from Japan, the surface almost shimmers, and seems to dance under the right light, and appears almost translucent, like you can look past the surface into it. I don't know what causes that or how it is done...but looking at it vs a late edo tosho tsuba with plain flat featureless steel is like night and day.

I do hope more advanced members can assist with some of the queries. As Jean said...it would take more than a book to even scratch the surface.

Perhaps the shape of the hitsu ana has a finite answer and someone can asisst.

Either way, you are not lacking something in asking these questions..they are ones I think many of us have, and perhaps to some of them, there is no answer.

 

Brian

[kissakai]

Jean/Brian

Great replies - many thanks

I think what I'm trying to get to is the offhand/blasé way the iron is described as if it is a self evident truth (easy to determine)

 

With reference to hardness I can use a hardness tester using a Rockwell hardness number but something I would not be happy doing

There is a scleroscope which is used to measure rebound hardness. Acknowledged as a rough method, the Leeb Rebound Hardness Test uses the ratio of impact and rebound velocities (as measured by a magnetic inducer) to determine hardness. I had a scleroscope a long time ago but never found it very accurate

I hope this is not too far of topic and doesn't need to be expanded upon.

 

A beginner gets lost because such a simple thing as the base metal can not be easily understood and what is now evident is the years of experience required

I will print off Jean's reply and see if I can get further with my study although the points about 'bones' is very interesting and would love to know more

 

 

Thanks

Grev UK

[seattle1]

Hello:

What an interesting set of questions Grev, for which you will probably get quite a range of answers. I'll try to answer a couple or derivations there of. I believe most of the speculations about iron quality are likely to have a high degree of hokum associated with them. The issue of strong or good iron shouldn't be over weighted as the strength of iron addresses something other than the main function of a tsuba, which is weight and its role as a counterbalance. The second function is to protect the hand, not from the opponent, but from sliding down the tsuka and on to the blade; the third function might be to protect the hand from another's sword, but mostly any tsuba would do that, and soft metal could do so as well. Some old koshirae will be seen without any tsuba, or at best, vestigial tsuba.

Iron plate will tend to be flat with no variation in surface height. Bones, well there are a number of theories though what additional benefit they might confer is totally unclear. They probably are functions of the inclusion of previously hardened blade scrape which remains intact at the lower heats used to process tsuba metal, or they are inclusions of harder Namban tetsu. There may be some correlation with their presence and the start of the new foreign trade in the 16th Cent.

To get an authoritative answer to your questions, at least in North America, the questions should be sent to Bob Haynes. I don't believe he is "wired" to this stuff so I'll send him a hard copy and when he replies, I'll post it, at least in summary form.

Arnold F.

[John A Stuart]

Grev, that thing about the iron/steel only becomes self evident as you handle more and more tsuba. There is a big difference between those dry cookie cutter plates of certain schools, where I believe they may purchase much of them, and plate made for the purpose by some artists shops. Not only do they have a visual difference, but, a tactile one. Certain tsuba are harder because I believe they are quenched and have a little higher carbon content whilst others ( the cookie cutters) are not and left purposefully softer to facilitate inlay and carving. John

[Pete Klein]

Give this site a try for some pictures of tsuba with excellent patina: http://kodogunosekai.com/page/2/

 

PS: I wouldn't get too caught up with all the Haynes terminology in his sale catalogs. He studied for years with Torigoye so what he can 'see' cannot always be put into words. It all takes a lot of hands on experience but the above examples linked to are almost all pretty damn good.

[ROKUJURO]

......the strength of iron addresses something other than the main function of a tsuba, which is weight and its role as a counterbalance.......

Arnold,

 

if I understand correctly, 'counter' means the opposite end of the handle while the blade represents the major part of the weight of a KATANA. We have counterbalances in medieval European swords where a massive pommel at the end of the handle serves this purpose. In Japanese swords the weight of the TSUBA adds to the weight of the blade while a KASHIRA has no function as a counterbalance.

[John A Stuart]

This is a matter of physics Jean. Counterweight may cause an incorrect understanding. The weight of anything added below the natural center of gravity tends to lower the center of gravity. Thus the higher the weight of the tsuba the closer the balance becomes towards the hands. This is the process which determines a ship's stability. If the weight is too high it pitches and rolls in heavy water. With the weight as low as possible it becomes more stable and easier to handle. As a slashing (mostly) weapon the Japanese sword is weight forward. How it reacts to applied force can be moderated by small changes of weight lowering or raising the center of balance. John

[ROKUJURO]

Thank you, John!

 

I can understand simple physics. So a TSUBA is meant to work similarly to a sliding weight on the barrel of a precision rifle? I would not have thought this to be it's main function!

 

Concerning the main TSUBA theme in this thread, you wrote:..... Certain tsuba are harder because I believe they are quenched and have a little higher carbon content whilst others.......are not and left purposefully softer to facilitate inlay and carving...

 

This could well be and would explain the forming of martensite on the surface. Subsequent annealing would then reduce the brittleness. Do you have a link or information source for this assumption?

[John A Stuart]

I wasn't being pedantic, I hope, Jean. You are right, exactly the same as your example. Not the main function, no; slippage and some guarding mainly, but, there are all kinds of nuances to making a sword fit the man or its purpose. Dialing in your above mentioned rifle, so to speak. John

[Lance]

1046 – Factory iron plate

1201 – Factory plate, well forged

How can I tell if factory iron plate is used and how well it was produced?

 

Factory plate tend to be somewhat featureless as mentioned earlier, a sort of blank canvas that artists carved or added inlay to, or sometimes left plain, with no decoration at all. If finished without inlay or sukashi might look like a tosho tsuba with no "character" or signs of forging at all. Like everything else there are different levels of quality,even to what's been called factory plate, for example how well they're shaped and finished, although I think most of the finishing itself is dependent on ability of the artist who made the tsuba itself.

Something that could be useful in judging quality levels can be a matter becoming familiar with the better artists of various schools and their works, and when coming across a piece from that school (or someone working in the style of) you can get a feel for what the intentions of the tsubako might have been and how successful they were.

Below is a link and a picture to a Nara school tsuba, who were said to use factory plate for a base on many of their guards, this appears to be a good example of factory plate.

 

http://www.mfa.org/collections/object/t ... tree-17128

 

1014 - Sand iron

1210 – Refined sand iron

1190 – Well forged sand iron

 

When I think of well forged iron tsuba, something like Kaneie school comes to mind where the artist was able to incorporate the forging, folding and shaping into the design or actually being the design itself:

 

http://www.mfa.org/collections/object/t ... scape-8480

 

 

1017 – Hitsuana, Higo style

1027 – Hitsuana, Jingo school, Higo style

Below's a page of Higo and Hiigo Jingo tsuba, the hitsuana are pretty distinctive, usually large and oddly shaped, (If there's a way to identify Higo Sukashi tsuba by the hitsu-ana it's beyond me, I can recognize some designs as being associated with certain schools but I'm not too good with sukashi tsuba in general, especially compared to the more knowledgeable members here),

 

http://www.silk-road.us/higo.html

 

Hope this is of some use, I think this can end up being a very good topic, and possibly serve as a useful visual glossary in the future as well?

 

Regards,

Lance

[Mantis dude]

I have struggled with many of the same questions. As I don't have a mentor and I don't get a lot of opportunities to meet with others, it makes studying/learning hard. As some have said, nothing beats hands on study! Since I am not aware of a definitive beginners guide to tsuba, I always thought it would be a great book to have. Some features like YAKITE SHITATE you can start to recognize since it is characteristic of some schools. Search the term or schools that have that feature. Some pictures are better than others and you might start to notice what they are talking about, although if you held it in hand, it would probably become a bit more self evident. I would love to get a lesson on Mito, Nara, Aizu Shoami and shiremono tsuba. Especially since there is a lot of pieces out there. Factory plate plays a role in all those schools. Early on I came to the conclusion that I will always be a beginner. With that in mind, I sort of accept that I will get a little knowledge here and a little knowledge there. Sometimes I surprise myself that I know something, but I know I have major gaps. I understand my access is limited therefore my learning will be limited. Eventually knowledge does migrate into the brain. It also doesn't help that many books have more information in them but there is one problem it is written in a language I don't read. When I do get the chance to handle an item sometimes it will help things click and the readings from books become clearer. Part of my attitude comes on realizing the "experts" spend a lifetime of studying so you can't expect to have all the answers like it was a spelling test- memorize this and then you will know. It is a different type of knowledge, more based on life experience, as much as books. That is just my take on it and it seems to work for me. I still enjoy the hobby.

 

The other piece to studying fittings is the meaning behind them and that is a lot easier to learn or obtain knowledge about. Themes and legends are repeated in many mediums, so you may find a netsuke that can clue you in to a tsuba theme, etc. There is a ton of knowledge out there. ok back to my coffee- happy New Year all and good luck.

[seattle1]

Hello:

John's reply right after that of Jean C. catches my meaning exactly, and the notion that the added weight has to be at the end of the tsuka as a necessary condition for the function of the tsuba, is clearly not so. If the primary function of the tsuba is to protect the hand by stopping or deflecting the opponent's sword I believe we would see rather different shapes predominate, such as cup shapes or even some features that would entangle the opponent's sword. I believe that we would also see similar diameter sized tsuba for both the daito and wakizashi, were protection the main feature, with the weight of the wakizashi tsuba being less, perhaps through thickness, so that the proportional weight distribution would remain roughly the same.

Arnold F.

[ROKUJURO]

.....the notion that the added weight has to be at the end of the tsuka as a necessary condition for the function of the tsuba, is clearly not so. If the primary function of the tsuba is to protect the hand by stopping or deflecting the opponent's sword I believe we would see rather different shapes predominate, such as cup shapes or even some features that would entangle the opponent's sword. I believe that we would also see similar diameter sized tsuba for both the daito and wakizashi, were protection the main feature, with the weight of the wakizashi tsuba being less, perhaps through thickness, so that the proportional weight distribution would remain roughly the same.

 

 

Arnold,

 

first, I was referring to you using the term 'counterbalance', which by itself implies a different position on a weapon than on the end of the handle where the blade is. As I wrote, a counterbalance by it's function means something like a heavy pommel we see in European swords and which facilitates rapid movements in fencing, a completely different fighting technique compared with those in medieval Japan.

 

Secondly, I doubted that a TSUBA's main function is intended to be the weight shifting for fine-tuning a KATANA to it's user. There are so many weight-related parameters in a KATANA that have considerable influence on balance (length of blade and TSUKA, material distribution in the blade, SORI, shape of KISSAKI, a.s.o.) that the TSUBA and it's weight is probably a very small factor.

 

I have read and heard a lot about TSUBA, but sometimes I have the impression that statements are just repeated without questioning their respective plausibility. l am keen to learn more, but based on facts, not on hearsay, and I allow myself to ask questions and to do my own practical research in the forge. So, this is not personal but only related to the subject, and has nothing to do with being right or wrong.

[seattle1]

Hello Jean:

Your first point about a "counterbalance" and the insistence of it being at the pommel does escape me, and the reference to the "... side of the blade..." even more. My point was that the tsuba placed where it usually is, would change the weight distribution of a balanced blade prior to adding the tsuba, thus making it more butt heavy. If "counterbalance" has some technical meaning unknown to me and violated by word choice, omit "counterbalance" and the meaning and implication should remain clear.

I do continue to posit that the main function of the tsuba is not hand protection, and I repeat many old koshirae are know not to have had tsuba at all.

Finally you observe that "... statements are just repeated without questioning their respective plausibility..." and reference is made to "hearsay". I do not believe I have ever seen or heard elsewhere mention of demotion of tsuba from being primarily hand protection from an opponent's sword other than in my other writings, and the same goes for the observation about comparisons of daito and wakizashi tsuba, and similarly about the lack of many cup or entangilment inducing tsuba shapes. As for the other observation of prevention from the hand slipping down the blade, that has been mentioned by others many times.

Arnold F.

[kissakai]

Hi

I read all the comments with interest

I have attached two tsuba that may interest you

Are there any valid/interesting points that can be made about the tsuba blank?

The blank is not laminated. There are file marks that criss/cross the surface and some surface porosity

I can guess this is a blank of low to medium quality

 

 

There are no file marks or porosity on the finished tsuba. It is not laminated

 

 

 

The blanks has already been shown on the NMB

PS With respect, the tsuba's application and 'balance' has moved off topic as this was posted to try to understand the basic iron tsuba qualities

 

 

Grev

[Mantis dude]

Just to add something I was thinking about is the "S" folding. I believe I have seen this and might even have an example but can't think which tsuba it is or maybe saw it online. but imagine the S turned on its side and then flattened. so the end of the S is banged down to the middle on the top and the other end of the S is on the middle bottom, getting rid of the space in the curves. you can seem the lamination folds when this is done. Actually there is a page I remember seeing in "tsuba an aesthetic study by ......Torigoye & Haynes...... ". I attached the page but this is a cheap investment book from the NCJSC. The back pages have some description on how tsuba are forged as well as finished. I also think Marckus Sesko has been putting out some good books in english. I have the handbook of sword fittings related terms and it helps give examples of what the terms are talking about. I haven't totally gone through the "handbook", it is on my table of books to go through but looking at it now, it is as close to a primer as I have seen. Plus it isn't huge and I believe relatively inexpensive- as I flip through it- I am recommending this strongly as a primer to have. Using that book along with other books with more detailed pics may give you more of what you are seeking.

[Pete Klein]

Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever

[ROKUJURO]

Pete,

 

thank you, this is helpful! WIKI explains nicely what a lever is.

 

Arnold, I will not continue the discussion. I am obviously not able to make my points clear enough, which may be due to my clumsy English. By the way, I never mentioned the TSUBA's possible function as hand protection.

 

Ken,

thank you for the Haynes scan. This is a very good example for my observation, that statements from books are sometimes just repeated without questioning their respective plausibility. Haynes wrote that MARU GITAE forging will produce MOKUME grain. That is not correct. A grain pattern will only occur by removing surface material so that the layers are cut at an angle. This is usually done by filing.

 

Then Haynes writes: ....the plate can be folded, a single time after the forging process.....This is not correct either as the folding and welding is a part of the forging process.

 

The last paragraph contains a description of the welding process where he wants to use straw and ash as a flux. This may mislead inexperienced readers as he probably meant to write 'clay and straw ash' as is actually used.

 

So even a knowledgeable author can cause confusion and misunderstanding when his explanations are based on something he only heard or read, but did not experience himself.

[Mantis dude]

Jean,

 

While I can appreciate what you are saying and I am not going to pursue much of this conversation since I am not a fabricator. I think you have to consider what a book is about- you are looking or talking about technical issues for forging iron/steel/etc but that isn't what the book is about. I am not looking to learn how to forge a tsuba and that isn't the purpose of the book.

 

In the second line you quote I look at what you point out as semantics. I took it to read more that forging of the iron can be and was often a separate process from forming the tsuba. It could be done by different people. In fact, that is the whole issue surrounding factory plates. With the formations of the road system, trading and specialization occurred where iron could be make by 1 group purchased by artisans and turned into a sword fitting. Again I think the statement is more from the point of a non-technical point of view of how things were done than a precise statement on how to actually make iron. And the last statement you made can also fit into that viewpoint or it can be just a mistype. Don't get me wrong I am not defending wrong information or the dissemination of wrong info, but I also think that books are written with different focuses. I am never going to be forging iron or any other metal and I am not really looking for that technical an explanation. You on the other hand obviously have great interest in that topic which I think is great. And that I also think that knowledge can be useful, certainly Ford has helped me understand certain things with his perspective as someone that actually works with metal. I don't always care how it is made but I do want to know what it looks like. I have encountered this issue in other subjects and I guess as an author you have to find the balance based on what you are trying to say and who your audience is. Too technical an explanation can detract if it isn't a treatise on a technical subject and vice versa, if you are looking for technical data, an overview or general textbook isn't going to give you the information you want.

 

That's just my 2 cents on it. I want to relate a similar type story that I need to get off my chest. As you may or may not know, I have a slight affinity for Praying Mantis themed fittings. I made a website including pics and added a section on fakes so people could avoid them. I don't get a lot of emails from the site but 99% are.....wait for it......Where can I buy a reproduction? I shake my head every time and respond with a quick, sorry don't know I try to avoid them. The Interpretation isn't what I expected with that section. Never underestimate the human races ability to interpret something different than what you intended.

 

Happy New Year all.

[Ken-Hawaii]

I'm coming in from the General Nihonto Questions forum in which I mentioned that I received an extremely thin tsuba this afternoon, by far the thinnest I've ever seen or held (0.23 cm). After showing to my wife, who is also an experienced sword swinger, she made these interesting observations: Why are not all tsuba only as thick as this skinny one? All it needs to do is to stop your hand from sliding forward onto the blade, & perhaps to stop a strike.

 

So my first question is whether there is a standard for tsuba thickness &, if so, why? And the second question is whether most tsuba are "overbuilt" for their function?

 

On the question of balancing a katana, I can state from my own experience that tsuba thickness simply doesn't change a katana's balance enough to make any functional difference. I've swapped tsuba on all of my iaito, as well as on the Nihonto I use in Shinto-Ryu training, & although I can usually tell that there's a difference in balance, I guess I have enough experience that it doesn't make any difference in my swinging technique. As far as being overbuilt, whether it would also functionally stop a sword strike is another question, but as the hands are seldom the target in any strike I've heard of in nearly 30 years of sword-swinging (wrists/kote are another story), I'm going to posit that even my skinny little tsuba will do what it's intended to do.

 

So that brings me back to asking why all my other tsuba are 2-3 times thicker? Iron plate didn't come cheap 400 years ago, so why did nearly all tsuba get built so much thicker?

 

Ken

[Akitombo]

Ken,

 

When you talk about thickness of the plate, I agree that one could indeed have a thin tsuba each time.

 

We have to bear in mind that whilst these items were on the sword to protect the hands from either a strike or a slip onto the blade and balance too, but................

 

The tsuba artist also took over and to let his imagination create the works of art we see on this board, then he would need a varied base on which to work.

 

Budo and art go hand in hand.

 

We can see this more after the 1600's, when the large scale battles stopped and decoration became much more important than the functional side of the weapon.

 

Happy New Year

 

David.N

[Ken-Hawaii]

Hmm, interesting premise, David. Did tsuba get thicker after 1615 when the battles mostly stopped? I don't think I've been able to date any of my tsuba closely enough to be able to tell, but I've also never seen a tsuba as thin as the one I just picked up, & I do have 2 or 3 that I'm told date back to early Muromachi times.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love some of my more ornate tosogu, especially one tsuba with a carved dragon passing in & out of the plate, but from a functional standpoint, I'm still wondering why 99.9% of all the tsuba I've seen over the years are 2-3 times thicker than this one.

 

Ken

[christianmalterre]

just coming back to one further post here...

 

The theorie´s of the two mentioned forging styles of iron plates given by Haynes here,are certainly more than just disturbing.

Haynes mentions an Maru-Kitae fold which forcefully shall lead into an Mokume-Hada...this is incorrect.

Equally he stated that such Maru-Kitae Tsuba latter treated with acid,-would show no grain apparent after polish...this statement equally is most disturbing in mine eyes.

Show me an acid ben available in historical Japan which "does know by itself" what expectation the smith had on it,while treating his workpiece to an final stage...

This,rather would sound logic if using a Base,-certainly not but an Acid!(Metallurgy!)

 

The whole teory of acids to have ben used(some Kaneie,Nobuie,Yagyu Tsuba are told to have ben treated this way)-is purely speculative, as- even modern purely refined acids could not work iron to an desired effect which knows where to stopp it´s treat and equally -it would certainly not know where to work in an area of estimated 2 squarecentimeters!(knowing where to act-knowing where to certainly stopp).(LOL!)

If still-one beliefs that Acids were used...i tend to say... it´s if ever?-rather then,it´s an Base that had ben used such to fullfill such „desired“ needs...Not?

 

Some modern highly refined and chemically cleaned Base could certainly do that „desired“ effects-equally but to hold in strong consideration is that around maybe 200-300 Years ago-such highly refined bases were not at all available-in fact,they did not at all exist and were unknown!

 

The treatment of an Tsuba while it´s production is depending on mechanical and physical impact only.(depending on material used for it´s production)

An latter applied treat with acids or bases would destroy the homogene surface....burn it-even corrode it(!)....

 

Next point,which did not get mentioned at all-is the combination of different iron ores....each varrying considerably in it´s structure...

The point of wooz is not mentioned,the point of decarbonised cast(cast generally) is not mentioned,the point of sandore is not mentioned,the point of Mangan content is not mentioned,different temperatures while the forge-process is not mentioned,reheating,tempering is not mentioned,ect,ect,ect...

 

An other point most disturbing,is the statement about an three layer fold method in Akasaka school....

What please shall ben represented here than just the continuous repeated“theory“other authors did cite regularely in past,too?????

Did they cut an Akasaka school Tsuba in cross ,use an microscope so to see if this theory is correct?

 

Or did this statement just and only grew while examining the Mimi on some latter branch school works,where indeed an layering sometimes(but not always!)is maybe sometimes visible?

Does this statement come from various observation from the inside-walls of some Sukashi on Tsuba in „Style“ of Aka....?

How does this statement confirms if we do have one of the prime quality main Aka-School Tsuba but?

 

Yakite-Shitate....not at all mentioned.....Yakite-Kusarashi...not at all mentioned..Carbon(content),,,carbonisation,decarbonisation..(all essential points...not mentioned...Why???????)

 

Metallurgy is quite much more than just refering theories and pushing them together into an Marukitae and an Awasekitae only....

Not?

 

The shown surface on your´s Tsuba Grev,-is not Tekkotsu at all...it´s heavily rusted and latter "recleaned",such to can sell it better...

Don´t keep such Tsuba if seriously collecting!

Do use them to learn only!

 

Christian

[ROKUJURO]

Ken,

 

thank you for your comment. You are certainly right in that an author has to focus on his readers' spectrum. He can probably not cover all forging details if it was a treatise on steel art. I understand that, but then as an author you have some responsibility and should be very careful in choosing the details you use in your text. In my eyes there is no justification for obvious misconceptions and faults, completely independent of the subject of a book or text.

 

You may well call me a perfectionist, but there is so much mediocre information in the media that at the end no one is correctly informed. Japanese arts and crafts on the other hand are so much 'deeper' in concept and execution than we Westerners are used to, that it does not meet the requirements of this subject to go over details in a sloppy way.

 

Just my personal view, and this applies as well to mistakes I find in my own texts......

[John A Stuart]

"The whole teory of acids to have ben used(some Kaneie,Nobuie,Yagyu Tsuba are told to have ben treated this way)-is purely speculative, as- even modern purely refined acids could not work iron to an desired effect which knows where to stopp it´s treat and equally -it would certainly not know where to work in an area of estimated 2 squarecentimeters!(knowing where to act-knowing where to certainly stopp).(LOL!)

If still-one beliefs that Acids were used...i tend to say... it´s if ever?-rather then,it´s an Base that had ben used such to fullfill such „desired“ needs...Not?"

Yes, not. Bases have little reaction with iron or steel. In fact a strong base, sodium hydroxide, is used to codition cast iron boilers. Japan owed a lot of its early alchemical and metallurgical knowlege to China. The burning of sulphur and reduction of sulphides lead to the discovery of suphurous and sulphuric acids. In China we know there was nao sha which is sal ammoniac documented in the Chou-i ts'an t'ung ch'i, a Chinese treatise of the 2nd century AD. It was to be crucial to alchemy, for on sublimation it dissociates into antagonistic corrosive materials, ammonia and hydrochloric acid, which readily attack the metals. Until the 9th century it seems to have come from a single source, the Flame Mountain (Huo-yen Shan) near T'u-lu-p'an (Turfan), in Central Asia.

Hydrochloric acid readily attacks iron. There were also studies of corrosive salts mainly the vitriols (copper and iron sulfates), alums (the aluminum sulfates of potassium and ammonium), and the chlorides of sodium and ammonium and their effect on metals.

It seems well established acids could and were used in Japanese metallurgy and thereby by tsubako and togishi. John

[Mantis dude]

I debated cropping or not cropping just to show the S curve..... see what being lazy started.

 

Just a general thought- historically I think the glossing over or passing of inaccurate construction information had its roots in control of information. A collector needs to know styles, basic or observable construction techniques, and other identifiable characteristics to help him classify the tsuba. Different schools used different techniques and if you were more knowledgeable you could use those identifiers to tell individual smiths if you knew the techniques used by a particular smith. Some Goto identifiers have been published where one generation does "this" with his shishi versus a different generation does that (I wish I had translations on those books). But even then the information was not widely known. Perhaps a few books were written but it still wasn't widely available.

 

Construction of a tsuba on the other hand was knowledge that was passed down from teacher to student and were much more guarded secrets that were not shared with the outside world. It was an even smaller base of people that knew how to construct the tsuba. Now that there is more sophistication and obviously there are some technical people that have more understanding of how metals work or respond to various treatments there is more opportunity to write down those processes. I bet even many metal workers in the past couldn't explain why something happened but they knew the result of an action. The best illustration I can think of is I remember reading in forging a sword heat it until it is the color of the autumn sun (or something like that). The student would learn what that looked liked and the good ones could replicate it, the unskilled students struggled with it or a mistake occurred when they got this wrong. Today you may know that that point might be 500 degrees and can be measured (Purely made up temps just for illustration - I am a non technical person). So the knowledge available to us can provide more insight on a technical level. But this information was not written down. It also didn't necessarily hinder the study of the art. Although I will definitely agree that some of this newly discovered or disseminated knowledge can help with insight into the studies for identification or appreciation, I also think a lot of that information is not required. Just a basic idea maybe good enough.

 

What knowledge is needed for understanding at least in part is a matter of individual focus and provides opportunities to take studies in different directions and perspectives. I guess it gets back to my earlier point- Haynes's book which is really a translation of an older text is about the characteristics of schools with information on some smiths. It has maybe 10 pages in the back on construction just to give a very basic understanding. Christian I think your questions are way beyond the scope of that book.

[Ken-Hawaii]

In fact a strong base, sodium chloride, is used to codition cast iron boilers.

 

John, I think you might mean sodium hydroxide...sodium chloride is table salt....

 

Ken

[John A Stuart]

Quite right and I didn't even have any Black Velvet. Haaaaa! I shall correct it. John