george trotter

Thanks for the info Bruce...I see it is dated Dec 1943...so it is like most steel scabbards have seen (i.e. dated 1943 - 1944 - 1945). I wonder what the earliest dated Rinji Seshiki steel scabbard sword will be?...hope we get a few more replies. Regards,

Interesting, Not that I am fixated on the steel scabbard type, but I did wonder when they started and I did think I had not seen any early dated ones - not before 1944 in my case - and the types I have seen are both showato and RJT blades with star stamp. The gendaito blades I have seen are all 1944 and all have two locking buttons. The showato examples have only one. So, maybe the steel scabbard type came out late war in Seki area due to the need to produce scabbards quicker (hand made wooden/lacquered scabbards must have taken longer/cost more?) Be interested to see if any steel scabbard blades are dated 1943 or earlier.

Yes Bruce, those regulations are (I think) the only guideline details I have seen as to blade length etc for Type 94 / 98 sword blades. I do have another related gunto question for you however....what is the earliest date on a blade mounted in the steel scabbard Rinji Seishiki style sword mounts? I ask this as I think this mounting came out a bit later than the usual lacquered wood scabbard type RS and as you have the best database of such things, I wondered what is the earliest dated example you have recorded...1942?...1943? I also think that they all come from the Seki area? I have one dated May 1944 by Seki Kanehide (star). Just wondering Bruce...hope I'm not a pest... Regards,

Smith's signature says NO-SHU KANE-TOSHI SAKU KORE (Kanetoshi of Noshu made this)...Noshu is the old name of Gifu Ken. I'm sure one of the members will give you some personal info on this smith. Regards.

Maybe email the Christies salesroom listed on your catalogue and ask them to send a copy? You never know...they might reply... Regards.

Yes, hard to say Phil, I have seen two blades by the same man, both with its hole the same size and location, both in Type 98 mounts. But, one has a second, smaller dia. hole drilled close by. The 1 hole is (IMO) still in its original mounts while the 2 hole one has slightly different mounts which (judging from the shop markings/numbers etch ) were done in a different shop . I feel that the 1 hole has survived the war in good shape in its original mounts while the 2 hole has had a rough time and had to be remounted and so the shop, finding that the original hole did not line up exactly to its particular hilt, put in a new hole....just my feeling on this. Regards...

Hi Phil, Having two holes on a WWII showato or gendaito blade is not uncommon. I think many swords were made and the smith put a hole in his 'usual place' and later, the mounting shop finds that the hole doesn't line up with the hilt/binding 'access' points so they put in another hole to line up well. No mystery, and not a sign that the sword has been re-mounted with a new/different set of mounts. Of course, never say never with Japanese swords, so there is always a possibility that it was re-mounted for some reason - battle damage, change to new mounts etc.......I'm just saying that two holes are not uncommon for the reason I give. Just my 2 cents worth..Hope this helps

Thanks Brian and all, very helpful. I will look it up. Regards...

Brian, I haven't heard of a spray sword oil...what is the brand / description? Regards...

Hey, Dave....small world.....my mum's brother was a sapper in the 2nd Field Coy. in the Royal Australian Engineers in the Borneo campaign. He was at the surrender at Labuan and brought back a Type 98 Gunto (gendaito but unsignes and undated). When I was a kid he told me that he had to chase the Japanese soldier 20 miles through the jungle to get that sword....but he told me 20 years later that in fact, the unit held a raffle after the surrender and he was lucky enough to win this sword. My cousins still have it. Regards,

I was 25. I had a quiet interest in Gunto because my uncle had brought one home from WWII (good sword - unsigned gendaito). It was probably due to my uncle's sword that I bought a very ordinary showato I happened to notice in an antique shop in Bournemouth in Dorset, UK (I was living nearby in Lymington, Hampshire). I brought it home when I returned to Australia in Sept. 1973 and as I gained more knowledge of Japanese swords I passed it on to concentrate on better swords...so that was 50 years ago and I am 76 this year...time flies when you are having fun.

Hi Christopher, Just a suggestion, but since you know the details of the surrender, the regiment numbers and the US officer/regiment receiving this sword at the surrender, then maybe if you contacted the museum / appropriate US records library you might be able to find many details of Yamamoto - even film of the surrender and maybe even documents. Just a thought. Regards...

HI Francis, Any chance you can show us a few photos of the blade, tip, mounts etc? I ask as I have a sword by his older brother Tsukamoto Masakazu. Regards...

Yes John, As Mal has said, it is likely every 'way' of buying a gunto was in use....I think this was possibly just a swordsmith 'thing' to make the choice of mountings easier/quicker for the buyer/sword shop who would mount it for him. This is just 'probabilities'...none of us has found research/writings that proves how/why the hole numbers were chosen. Regards...

On a Type 98 mounted blade tang being drilled 2 mekugi but only one used...I have a Sho 16 Sept dated blade by Yamagami Munetoshi of Niigata that has two holes but the Type 98 hilt is only drilled to use one mekugi hole. I think this may just be a smith's decision to produce 2 hole tangs and leave it to the local customer/mounting shop to decide on what mount to have. Regards...

For those interested in my translation, look up 'Star Stamped Swords' which is my post of Nov 25th 2010. I give the details of the article by Ohmura that I translated. I must say Bruce, we are still pretty much in the dark about some aspects of stamped swords aren't we. Have a read folks...it might help this present discussion. I must say that I have only acquired star stamped swords since those times so my collection does seem pretty well "stable" in assessing origin of blade/maker/quality and mark meaning...this 'focus on RJT' by me is what led me to ask my question above about navy KJT smiths - as I have little knowledge about them. Regards...

Thanks guys...interesting. Mal san...many years ago I had a Suetsugu SHIGEMITSU blade (undated) in Kaigunto mounts and it had no navy mark. And looking up the Matsubara KANEYOSHI you mention (I saw it in Slough p.73) it says he was Kaigun Jumei Tosho but the 1942 dated oshigata shown has no navy mark either. So, I think you might be right...there were a number of what are termed 'Kaigun Jumei Tosho' but they do not seem to be a 'Navy Version' of the Army's RJT scheme. Maybe it is simply a term used to describe a smith who worked officially for the Navy in one of their arsenals? maybe this is why no 'list' of Navy smiths has ever been compiled...there was no official KJT scheme set up like the RJT scheme...they were 'just' employees? Thanks...

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I have a question...I was just looking at Slough p.113 and noticed a smith classified as a Kaigun Jumei Tosho. The oshigata shown does not have any acceptance mark visible (i.e. a navy equivalent of the army star stamp seen on the works of Rikugun Jumei Tosho), so it made me wonder if there was a mark used by the navy? Anyone have knowledge on this? I have had / seen a number of good quality Kaigunto in hand over the decades, but from memory, none had any type of acceptance mark, so, just wondering...

Hi Bruce, I haven't done any research on RJT mei, but this is what I can tell you about the ones I have (or had). These are my RJT blades with star stamps. Tachi Mei Muto Hidehiro of Fukuoka 18/2 (no longer have this sword) Tachi mei Yamagami Munetoshi of Niigata 18/5 (also have another by him done pre-RJT (no star) signed Tachi mei dated 16/9) Katana mei Nagao Kunishiro of Aomori 19/2 Tachi Mei Nakata Kanehide of Seki 19/5 Tachi Mei Takashima Kunihide of Kyoto 19/8 Hope this is pf some use...

I may as well make a comment on the meaning of the term 'art sword' also... While the TOSHO who made traditional Japanese swords are certainly 'artisans', the objects they made were weapons. The term 'art sword' did not appear until after WWII. It was officially put in place c.1952 by government legislation to allow the re-commencement of the sword making craft. The term 'art' was used to deflect the expected criticism from the West caused by the disrepute engendered by the Japanese sword in WWII. So, essentially, the fact is that all Japanese swords made up to 1945 are weapons and all swords made after 1952 are art. From this, the tern 'art sword' should only apply to post-WWII swords. I don't collect art swords. Hope this helps...

Well, good feedback Bruce and I see you've already found Ogawa Kanekuni. I think this may play out as being a long, patient search for where/when/who owned, used the TAN stamp. So far (am I correct?) it seems that the users were all? in Gifu / Seki? I think this is a BRUCE job (with help from keen-eyed members)...I know I'll keep my eyes open. Regards,

OK...Thomas answers the mystery Bruce. Thanks Thomas, I had a look in my copy and found the page. Bruce, I just had a quick flip through Fuller and Gregory's first little yellow book "Guide to Showa Swordsmiths' 1978 and on p.78 (item 100) is an oshi of a TAN tang...it is signed NOSHU SEKI JU ZENJO OGAWA KANEKUNI with the notation that he was 'of the Zenjo school'. Not sure about that statement but maybe you could try to find out a bit about the Zenjo in WWII....maybe the Tan stamp is theirs? or maybe Zenjo is just one of those "old school / line ID" slogans some smiths use. Anyway, I'll see if I can find out anything about Ogawa Kanekuni tomorrow. Regards...

No, sorry Bruce. I have no access (that I know of) to information on these Gifu "commercial factory" smiths. However, I see that 2 Gifu smiths on your list are listed as RJT so I might have some info on them (I will have a look tomorrow). FYI here one little "titbit" you and your list have provided... I looked up your list smith Kanetoshi - (Slough pg 122) - and that is not correct...pg 122 is an entirely different smith called Endo Nagamitsu....maybe you could check your notes and see if you / your source got it wrong and actually meant another book or if it is in Slough, maybe it is Murayama Kanetoshi (in Slough pg 70). He is of GIFU and became RJT. He is listed in Nihonto Meikan p.158 as being of Gifu and during the war he worked at the SEKI TOKEN KABUSHIKI KAISHA (Works photo in 1942 Dai Nihon Token Shoko Meikan p.16). This is the same sword forging premises where Nakata Kanehide RJT worked. I would SURMISE that if Murayama Kanetoshi is the Kanetoshi referred to in your list and he used the Tan stamp, it was in his previous pre-RJT period of work...unless the Seki Token KK had two standards of sword production, RJT gendaito and "TAN" (showato?). This is about all I found and it was due to the link your list provided to Slough....hope I haven't made things more "clouded". Hope this helps...regards.

Sorry Bruce...can't help. I have only seen one or two swords with this mark and that was 20-30 years ago. Nor have I seen (or at least I can't remember seeing) any reference / discussion of this tan stamp over the years. Regards...

Hi Steve, I don't think you will have a devalued sword there as there are a number of variations in the "NLF" mounts and it will be the blade that determines the value. Any chance of telling us / showing us some more about the mounts and blade? Regards...