george trotter

Thanks Ray...I wasn't sure if I was seeing an extra stroke or two on the left side of the shima kanji. Great stuff, Thanks.

Hi all, Here is gunto mounter's name written in ink on the hilt of one of my WWII swords. On the left of the nakago opening is the number 199 (also in western numbers on on all parts) and on the right of the opening is the mounter's name. It looks like Oshima to me, but as there is some rubbing there, could it be something else? Could some of our Japanese speakers have a look and tell me their opinion please? Thanks colleagues...

Volker san, I just noticed this post...I know 2 years have passed since you posted these comments - but can I ask if you came back to NMB with this info/oshigata/pics? I would like to know more about RJT smiths making swords at the Inari forge. Regards, George.

Whew, glad we got through this one Bruce....I think its time for a rum & coke on the verandah. Regards.

Well reasoned Bruce. You are a treasure. NOW, I have been at work again last night....and this time I think Moriyama san was right to be very cautious/reluctant to accept that Mitsuhashi mon theory of mine. Here's why. It suddenly occurred to me to check the DNTSM 1942 book again an all dealer/mounter name lists and just see how many names began with MITSU. The reason was that it suddenly occurred to me that maybe the "Mitsu mon" stamp on my sword may just have been put on by any shop/mounter who had a name that started with 'Mitsu' ....just a work tally mark. Well, just scanning through the pages I found that for shops/mounters listed whose name starts with MITSU (might be more) there are 10. These 10 are spread across Tokyo, Iwate, Osaka, Yamagata, Kyoto, Tottori, Kagawa. SO...if the ink mark is just an internal use shop tally marker (not the shop logo), then this sword could have been made by any of these 10 'Mitsu' people in any of the shops listed across 7 Prefectures. So, I now think it is best to just "wipe" my Mitsuhashi mon theory and just maybe keep the ink stamp on the "what is this mark?" list in case another (properly explained) example turns up. Hope I am not making this matter more difficult... Regards.

OK that's fine. Please remember, this is just a "possible" link - and will only be for my private notes. I will not be claiming this is correct on NMB. Regards...

Yes, I understand what you say...I did see that usagi mon also. But just as it is possible Mitsuhashi Toranosuke the dealer using the usagi mon or some other mon is that it is equally possible that he did use the number 3 in a circle mon. It is for this reason that I think it is reasonable to put a note in my sword file that this sword may have been mounted/sold by Mitsuhashi Toranosuke the dealer of Tokyo 1939-1942. This is an equally reasonable position to take isn't it? Regards...

Thanks for your quick reply Moriyama san. 1. yes I understand that Mitsuhashi is only one of about 50 names who used this mon. 2. OK, good. I was wondering about Mitsutachibana as I could not find the name anywhere. 3. Yes, I think Hawley made a typo and the name IS Mitsuhashi. The reason I brought this topic up is that since this mon IS the mon of the name Mitsuhashi (only one of c. 50 who used it) and Mitsuhashi is a name actually listed in the 1942 book as a dealer/craftsman in Tokyo where 2nd Lt KUME joined the 32nd Division in 1939-1942 and the ink trade-mark/mon is seen on his sword mounts, I "concluded' that there is a good chance that Kume's sword was mounted/polished/sold from this Mitsuhashi Toranosuke's business premises in Tokyo during 1939-1942. I know this is not proved, but it is a good possibility and is worth making a note of it for my sword file. Thanks for noticing the error with the kanji (I missed it) and yes, I agree that the ink stamp is very poor image of the actual mon, but I think this is because it was maybe only used as "parts ID mark" by that particular dealer. Regards...

That is interesting Moriyama san...what do you think about the number 3 in a circle mon image above taken from Hawley's Mon book? Do you think it is likely to be the mon of the Mitsuhashi family? Or is it likely to be the mon of the Mitsutachibana family? Or do you think Hawley maybe put in the kanji for Tachibana as a mistake and he really meant to put in the kanji for Hashi? Regards...

It looks like HYO, BYO, HEI (level, even, plain etc...). Hei can mean peaceful, as in Taiheiyo (great peaceful sea - Pacific to us) and it is also the name TAIRA. Seems like there is an older number painted in red underneath...maybe 72 ?

Thanks for that list Bruce/Chris...those are the shop logos I referred to when I was forming my "theory", based mainly on that list having both a "number 1 in a circle" and an "number 8 in a circle" which made me then think maybe my ink stamp of "number 3 in a circle" fitted this list quite well. My mistake was to not notice that the Hawley book has either mistranslated the kanji of Mitsitachibana* as Mitsuhashi, or Hawley's printer has put the wrong kanji of 'tachibana' instead of 'hashi'. Because there is this kanji 'difference' I cannot claim that the Mitsuhashi dealer listed in the 1942 book is this Mitsuhashi in Hawley. So, best to leave it as 'unknown' as you say Bruce. On Moriyama san's point about the ink stamp NOT being a mon, I just cannot say for sure...maybe the best I can say is that while the "number 1 in a circle" ink stamp is not a 'proper' printed mon, it is the same 'massage' as the mon. I just thought the mounting guy or mounting shop guy just used a rubber ink stamp of his/the shop's logo as a 'marker' for his/the shop's work. The best we can do to maybe get some 'evidence' on which is correct is wait for another such ink stamp to turn up on another WWII gunto sword mounting...maybe one never will. *BTW...I looked everywhere but could not find the name MITSUTACHIBANA. Can someone post it from a book/source please? I ask this as if we cannot find the name Mitsutachibana in any Japanese name book, it might mean that the "problem" here is that Hawley's printer inserted the wrong kanji for "hashi", using "tachibana" instead by mistake. Regards to all.

Thanks for that careful analysis Moriyama san. What you say and your evidence shows that the link between the sword and the "Mitsuhashi" sword dealer/mounting craftsman is too uncertain, so I will remove it from my file and just leave it as a "possible" connection. Thanks for your feedback - it is best to be careful about these things. Regards.

Hi Bruce san and Moriyama san, Thank you both. I think it might be as Koichi san says...a regular meeting of dealers to buy/sell goods to each other so they can acquire stock and later sell them on to officers. Maybe those bought by dealer Mitsuhashi were assembled/repaired/mounted in his shop and the shop mon was put on the finished hilt just to confirm it as Mitsuhashi product when they later sold it on. And Bruce, that mon pic and that name Mitsuhashi is OK to put together on your stamps list....but maybe best to wait a little while in case some extra/different info comes in? Lots of fun.... Regards

Dear all, I was talking to Bruce last year about an ink "mon" stamp on the hilt wood of a WWII Type 98 gunto I have. We were wondering about what "sword shop" this mon represented as no "number three in a circle" mon appear in any advertisments in the 1942 Japanese Sword Trade book "Dai Nihon Token Shoko Meikan". Since then I have found the mon in Hawleys "Mon" book 1976 p.89, and it is the mon of the MITSUHASHI family. I went back to the DNTSM and found that there is only one name in the book...this is MITSUHASHI TORANOSUKE listed as a member of a Tokyo (Ueno) "HACH NO HI TOKEN KOKAN KAI" ( (I attach page 200 from this book) .which I translate as the "8 Day Sword Exchange Assoc.". which meets every month on the 8th, 18th and 28th . This page advertises the 41 members' names and on the bottom line (2 from left) is MITSUHASHI TORANOSUKE. As this name appears here and the Mitsuhashi mon appears on my sword wood and I know that the sword owner Lt KUME was in the 32nd Division raised in the Tokyo area, I am tempted to assume that this Mr Mitsuhashi who was a dealer/mounter/or? there in WWII Tokyo is the person who put this mon ink stamp on my sword wood. My question to the NMB knowledgeable is ...can you tell me what an "Exchange" is? What it does? what type of sword related people are in them? I'm sure Bruce would like to know this also. I'd be interested in your ideas and replies.... Regards to all.

Yes, always check the data.

Hi Bruce...not a WWII sword. Mei says "Kozuke no kami Kanemune".. This was a line of smiths of Yamato Tegai group 1300s - 1600s I think. So definitely no anchor stamp.

Sorry Guys, you know heaps more on these swords than I do... Regards.

This question causes me to ask an equally relevant question...how did they drill them?...especially pre-westerner arrival with modern technology such as drills? Just wondering.

Gosh, I have to say that Nick Komiya was a real treasure to us Gendato gunto collectors. That doc with the red border around the 27 smiths on display the Matsuzakaya Dept. Store there in Ginza in 1942 is a treasure to me. In those 27 names is Tsukamoto Masakazu (col 4 from R, top), the maker of a very nice gunto in RS mounts that I own (also listed is his younger bro Tsukamoto Okimasa (col 1 from R top) and a 'middle' brother Kasama (born Tsukamoto) Kiyokazu (col 3 from R bot). Who could ask for better historical records for their collection than the docs Nick dug out of the archives. What a loss to us is his passing. Regards...

Thanks Nathan. Interesting sword...don't go to any trouble pulling it out of storage...1942 is all we need. Regards...

Nice find Nathan, any pics of the fittings...date? Regards...

I saw this post in the general discussion section Mark and I commented there. Thanks for finding and posting it. I'm pleased to say that we were polite then, even if we disagreed...and glad to say that now, 10 years later, we are (mostly) still polite when we disagree. That's what the NMB is - a forum of civilised discussion. Regards....

Hi Mark, Thanks for finding that old thread....it sure illustrates that we have had this hadori/sashikomi discussion before...and quite rightly so. Good to see that we were polite to each other then and are (mostly) still polite. I note that some members who I have deep respect for disagreed with my position on preferring sashikomi then and am sure they still do. This is our common right and in no way affects my respect for their knowledge and preferences. Enjoy the discussion. Regards...

I too dislike hadori polish...so much so that I would rather keep a sword in WWII sashikomi polish even if it had scratches and stains from use. I wonder if any modern polisher can still do sashikomi today? I also wonder why modern collectors/museums/dealers etc moved to Hadori?....(must have been for a cost saving reason - surely it couldn't have been for artistic reasons?). I know the world changes over time, but IMHO losing sashikomi is a really sad change I probably sound like a grump, but I have to say, honestly, I would not even pick up and look at a sword in modern hadori polish.

Hi all, Hope someone can help me find a photo of Osaka smith Okishiba Yoshisada for my records. He worked 1930s-1970s and was a RJT in WWII. I have looked through all my Japanese language books but there is no pic. Just hoping there is a pic of him in some NMB members book they could post for me? Here is his name on a oshigata of his 1st seat winning sword in 1941. My fingers are crossed....