george trotter

Yes John, As Mal has said, it is likely every 'way' of buying a gunto was in use....I think this was possibly just a swordsmith 'thing' to make the choice of mountings easier/quicker for the buyer/sword shop who would mount it for him. This is just 'probabilities'...none of us has found research/writings that proves how/why the hole numbers were chosen. Regards...

On a Type 98 mounted blade tang being drilled 2 mekugi but only one used...I have a Sho 16 Sept dated blade by Yamagami Munetoshi of Niigata that has two holes but the Type 98 hilt is only drilled to use one mekugi hole. I think this may just be a smith's decision to produce 2 hole tangs and leave it to the local customer/mounting shop to decide on what mount to have. Regards...

For those interested in my translation, look up 'Star Stamped Swords' which is my post of Nov 25th 2010. I give the details of the article by Ohmura that I translated. I must say Bruce, we are still pretty much in the dark about some aspects of stamped swords aren't we. Have a read folks...it might help this present discussion. I must say that I have only acquired star stamped swords since those times so my collection does seem pretty well "stable" in assessing origin of blade/maker/quality and mark meaning...this 'focus on RJT' by me is what led me to ask my question above about navy KJT smiths - as I have little knowledge about them. Regards...

Thanks guys...interesting. Mal san...many years ago I had a Suetsugu SHIGEMITSU blade (undated) in Kaigunto mounts and it had no navy mark. And looking up the Matsubara KANEYOSHI you mention (I saw it in Slough p.73) it says he was Kaigun Jumei Tosho but the 1942 dated oshigata shown has no navy mark either. So, I think you might be right...there were a number of what are termed 'Kaigun Jumei Tosho' but they do not seem to be a 'Navy Version' of the Army's RJT scheme. Maybe it is simply a term used to describe a smith who worked officially for the Navy in one of their arsenals? maybe this is why no 'list' of Navy smiths has ever been compiled...there was no official KJT scheme set up like the RJT scheme...they were 'just' employees? Thanks...

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I have a question...I was just looking at Slough p.113 and noticed a smith classified as a Kaigun Jumei Tosho. The oshigata shown does not have any acceptance mark visible (i.e. a navy equivalent of the army star stamp seen on the works of Rikugun Jumei Tosho), so it made me wonder if there was a mark used by the navy? Anyone have knowledge on this? I have had / seen a number of good quality Kaigunto in hand over the decades, but from memory, none had any type of acceptance mark, so, just wondering...

Hi Bruce, I haven't done any research on RJT mei, but this is what I can tell you about the ones I have (or had). These are my RJT blades with star stamps. Tachi Mei Muto Hidehiro of Fukuoka 18/2 (no longer have this sword) Tachi mei Yamagami Munetoshi of Niigata 18/5 (also have another by him done pre-RJT (no star) signed Tachi mei dated 16/9) Katana mei Nagao Kunishiro of Aomori 19/2 Tachi Mei Nakata Kanehide of Seki 19/5 Tachi Mei Takashima Kunihide of Kyoto 19/8 Hope this is pf some use...

I may as well make a comment on the meaning of the term 'art sword' also... While the TOSHO who made traditional Japanese swords are certainly 'artisans', the objects they made were weapons. The term 'art sword' did not appear until after WWII. It was officially put in place c.1952 by government legislation to allow the re-commencement of the sword making craft. The term 'art' was used to deflect the expected criticism from the West caused by the disrepute engendered by the Japanese sword in WWII. So, essentially, the fact is that all Japanese swords made up to 1945 are weapons and all swords made after 1952 are art. From this, the tern 'art sword' should only apply to post-WWII swords. I don't collect art swords. Hope this helps...

Well, good feedback Bruce and I see you've already found Ogawa Kanekuni. I think this may play out as being a long, patient search for where/when/who owned, used the TAN stamp. So far (am I correct?) it seems that the users were all? in Gifu / Seki? I think this is a BRUCE job (with help from keen-eyed members)...I know I'll keep my eyes open. Regards,

OK...Thomas answers the mystery Bruce. Thanks Thomas, I had a look in my copy and found the page. Bruce, I just had a quick flip through Fuller and Gregory's first little yellow book "Guide to Showa Swordsmiths' 1978 and on p.78 (item 100) is an oshi of a TAN tang...it is signed NOSHU SEKI JU ZENJO OGAWA KANEKUNI with the notation that he was 'of the Zenjo school'. Not sure about that statement but maybe you could try to find out a bit about the Zenjo in WWII....maybe the Tan stamp is theirs? or maybe Zenjo is just one of those "old school / line ID" slogans some smiths use. Anyway, I'll see if I can find out anything about Ogawa Kanekuni tomorrow. Regards...

No, sorry Bruce. I have no access (that I know of) to information on these Gifu "commercial factory" smiths. However, I see that 2 Gifu smiths on your list are listed as RJT so I might have some info on them (I will have a look tomorrow). FYI here one little "titbit" you and your list have provided... I looked up your list smith Kanetoshi - (Slough pg 122) - and that is not correct...pg 122 is an entirely different smith called Endo Nagamitsu....maybe you could check your notes and see if you / your source got it wrong and actually meant another book or if it is in Slough, maybe it is Murayama Kanetoshi (in Slough pg 70). He is of GIFU and became RJT. He is listed in Nihonto Meikan p.158 as being of Gifu and during the war he worked at the SEKI TOKEN KABUSHIKI KAISHA (Works photo in 1942 Dai Nihon Token Shoko Meikan p.16). This is the same sword forging premises where Nakata Kanehide RJT worked. I would SURMISE that if Murayama Kanetoshi is the Kanetoshi referred to in your list and he used the Tan stamp, it was in his previous pre-RJT period of work...unless the Seki Token KK had two standards of sword production, RJT gendaito and "TAN" (showato?). This is about all I found and it was due to the link your list provided to Slough....hope I haven't made things more "clouded". Hope this helps...regards.

Sorry Bruce...can't help. I have only seen one or two swords with this mark and that was 20-30 years ago. Nor have I seen (or at least I can't remember seeing) any reference / discussion of this tan stamp over the years. Regards...

Hi Steve, I don't think you will have a devalued sword there as there are a number of variations in the "NLF" mounts and it will be the blade that determines the value. Any chance of telling us / showing us some more about the mounts and blade? Regards...

Had a look through the books Klaus but I found nothing for a WWII era TADAYOSHI of Yamato no Kuni (Nara Prefecture), sorry...I too have a couple of unrecorded WWII smiths...a nuisance for sure! Regards...

Yes, I still have my 1972 copy...mine cost $1.75 Australian. Great help back in the day...

OK, great stuff...thanks David. I will keep an eye on IMA's auctions in case it comes up...be interested to know what it brings. Regards...

Hi David, That is great info...thank you. I will "ponder it" and see if I can add anything to your info. I actually responded to you privately before I saw this post, so please disregard my private message as you answer most of my questions here...just a couple of things... Is it dated on the tang? Now many seppa? (8?) What is the assembly number stamped on the seppas? Regards,

Hi David, Now 6 days since you asked your question about your WWII Shigekuni and also that long since members here gave you some answers. Not sure why you don't get back in touch with us...hope you haven't been hit by a bus outside International Military Antiques in Gillette, New Jersey, where you work. Hope to hear back from you and to see some pics of the blade and any info you have on the officer that owned it...IJA unit...where surrendered etc. Just hoping... Regards...

Hi David, It has been a couple of days since you posted...I was wondering if we are going to hear back from you regarding your query? I would like to have info/pics from you regarding your Shigekuni - so I can compare it with mine. Love to see the blade, whole tang, fittings and whether there are any "mounting shop" marks on your hilt wood etc. So far as I know, you are the only other collector in the world that has a modern WWII Shigekuni sword. Here are some hilt marks on mine. 3 in a circle stamp (mounting shop logo?) kanji numbers 199 (job number?) - tsuba and seppa have roman numbers 199. Name OSHIMA (customer name - not my officer - maybe the person who ordered the polishing/mounting job?). Anything on your hilt? Regards...

Hi David, Your Shigekuni signed blade is identical to mine...signature matches exactly. It is written in the style of some of the signatures done by the c.1655 2nd Gen. NANKI SHIGEKUNI of KII province (now Wakayama). However, this is in fact a WWII gendaito smith and now that you have provided a second example, it seems he made these for military officers, but signed in the style of 2nd Gen Shigekuni. Although modern WWII made, this smith is not recorded in any book I have seen, so other than discuss the quality and date of his (now 2) blades, I have no history of him. Here are a few photos of mine and his signature and a comparison with the way the 2nd Gen Nanki Shigekuni signed some of his tangs - look especially at the way the 'kuni' is written. I think this WWII Shigekuni deliberately "copied" the writing style of the 2nd Gen. Hope this helps. I'd like to see some pics of your blade and fittings...any info on where/who surrendered your blade? Mine was owned by a 2nd Lt. Kume of the 32nd (Kaeda) Division on Morotai Island in August 1945. This Div. consisted of the 210, 211, 212 Regiments drawn from Tokyo and the adjoining Chiba and Yamanashi Prefs. It was raised and trained in Feb 1939 - May 1939 (so the officer probably came from one of these three areas and as they all trained in Tokyo, this is probably where he engaged the smith Shigekuni to make his sword). Lt Kume surrendered to the Americans and Australians on Morotai in two separate ceremonies...he was obviously part of the units that surrendered to the Australians as it ended up here after the war. Be great to know more about this Shigekuni....look forward to your pics of blade/tang/fittings etc. On the handle wood (under the Fuchi) is a ink stamp "3 in a circle" mon (prob. the mounting/polishing/artisan logo, and also the kanji numbers '199' (prob the job number) and the name 'Oshima' (prob the name of the mounter guy?). Maybe check yours and see if yours went through the same "system". My officer's silver mon was torn off before its surrender.

Almost right Klaus...Okimasa is the younger brother of Masakazu. Although youngest, Okimasa was the first of 4 brothers to become an independent swordsmith c.1939 and he then took his 3 elder brothers as his apprentices...Masakazu becoming independent in 1941. I think all 4 became RJT. Regards...

It is a possibility Bruce...But, as I am not the messiah...it would be good if one of our 'fluent' Japanese speakers/readers could have a look through some modern Gendaito sources and see if they mention any of the marking procedures of WWII RJT. Regards...

Just thought I'd 'chip in' here... I don't have exact detail on the Niigata RJT system but I do have a good book on the RJT system in adjoining Fukushima (GUNTO KUMIAI SHIMATSU). This book (p.58-59) gives details on the RJT smith outputs and a Fukushima RJT smith called Tsukamoto Masakazu put out the following: 1944 August 14 -Sept.20 = 10 swords 1944 Sept. 20 - Nov. 19 = 25 swords 1944 Nov. 19 - Dec. 29 = 15 swords 1944 Dec. 29 - 1945 Feb. 26 = 12 swords. This is a total of 62 swords over about 6 months...while the average is about 10/month it can be seen that the total goes up and down quite a bit...maybe due to Tamahagane supply problems etc?. This being a pretty clear picture of an RJT smith monthly output, it seems to me that the "giant leaps" in tang numbers might be explained by the numbers being put on tangs by the polishing or mounting shops that serviced the smiths' blades...this might show that the particular smiths blades came in "from time to time" and the numbers show the larger quantity of blades that have passed through these shop between each smiths blade arriving? Not sure if this helps at all but it does show that the average smith put out approx. 10 swords / month...maybe this can 'fit' in to the tang numbers seen? Regards, George.

Thanks Simon. I don't know of any recent book themed specifically on RJT but if you come across one, I would be interested....so let us know if you do. Thanks.

Nice collection Simon. Any books there about WWII Rikugun Jumei Tosho? I'd be interested ... Regards, George.

forgot to add...all fittings on Munetoshi 308 are numbered '2'.