Ford Hallam

Mike, why dismiss the very obvious. to my eyes anyway, Hamano attribution? I mean, why go looking for obscure alternatives unless you have an obvious reason? As for the Teruyoshi call... as I'm unaware of a Teruyoshi school as such I assume a particular individual is being suggested. This being the case I'm guessing the student of Omori Terumasa...waves, etc. Do you have some examples of his work that are convincingly like this set?

Easy rule of thumb, if it's got lots of silver and gold on it and it's on ebay for what seems like a bargain it's not worth the postage.

well if it's brass it's unlikely to be any earlier than late Momoyama. It might be bronze....but that'd be unusual/rare, especially in such a light openwork piece. I doubt it's even Edo period, imo a more likely pretty recent reproduction. hard to say why in a forum post but it just doesn't look right however it's described. Besides, ebay, apparently ancient tsuba 'treasure' without papers....not likely. And I'm guessing out of Japan too.

The book? ..getting there. I have to do a load of final rewrites to make sure everything is properly interconnected and I'm hoping to be dealing with the printers in August.

The real question is; who will be ni-dai? I'd need at least 7 years to pass on the whole deal...

John, yes, I had assumed you'd interpreted that recessed line as indicating a joint. I think it's the chased line the maker made when the design was marked out, possibly redefined once the centre area was chiselled down to lower it slightly compared to the rim. It's a pretty standard process and in evidence on many pierced and chiselled steel tsuba. It seems to me also, in the two full images of the tsuba you initially posted, that the grain of the steel follows from the body to the rim indicating a single plate, to my eyes anyway. Making a tsuba like this from two pieces is simply inefficient in both in terms time and materials/fuel. A two piece construction is also weaker. So those two indented lines are not enough to convince me. Perhaps there's more to see....but I don't see a mystery yet.

Hey Brian, in my opinion this is a straightforward one piece tsuba

Modern amateur work, imo. Made from badly corroded mild steel sheet...done something like this myself many years ago. Kozuka hitsu is not a convincing shape and the other side is utterly inappropriate in terms of awareness that at some point a further piercing may be required. Genuine period pieces tend to exhibit an recognition of function that is lacking here.

These look like relatively modern amateur work to my eyes. The inside of the kashira seems to show that it wasn't punched up out of a single sheet. The file marks inside are undistorted so evidently the 'cap/lid' was simply soldered to the band.

"So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides

another thought provoking paper on objectivity in historical research here.

Henry, As far as abstract motifs go I'd probably agree with you but in this specific case, the whole Christian iconography issue, we looking at a significant cultural/historical phenomenon so it's important not to project preconceived ideas on to the subject without good evidence. And yes, naturally there will always be a degree of bias in any research but one trusts that as we learn more and ideas rub up against each other we develop a more accurate and nuanced picture of the past.

I can sympathise with the general thrust of your post, Henry, but I have to make a hard delineation at the point where you suggest; "These tsuba as they stand can represent Christianity if you want them to and I think there is nothing wrong with that." From any sort of academic or objective point of view this suggestion is problematic. What it suggests is that whatever anyone feels something represents is ok. This completely undermines and makes meaningless any sort of objective research.

I am well aware of the history of Christianity in Japan, that there were 'hidden Christians' is not in question at all. The point I'm making is that I don't believe Samurai, or anyone else for that matter, were wandering around in what was essentially a military dictatorship bearing badges that could so easily identify them as adherents of the foreign faith and therefore a threat to the shogunate. The problem the Shogunate had with Catholicism was that they realised that any Lord who converted to that faith then owed their allegiance to the Christian God or, more to the point, to His representative on earth, the Pope in Rome. In theory a member of the Samurai class owed their loyalty first to the Emperor, then the Shogun and then their own domain Lord. Allegiances to outside political forces, and the Holy Roman Empire was merely a continuation of the older Roman Empire in many respects, were seen as a very serious threat to the ruling order. Everything the Shogunate did was to maintain its control and authority. As far as the Shogunate were concerned Catholicism was a very real and direct threat to national stability and security. This being the political reality of Edo period Japan I find the romantic notion that Samurai followers of Jesus or Layola so obviously and blatently advertised their disloyalty to the state to be unsubstantiated. In fact one might imagine that the Shogunate might have approved of such an obvious way of identifying subversive samurai, so that they and their families could be rounded up and eliminated.

Michael, well I'm somewhat relieved you now seem to acknowledge that I'm not a complete ignoramus with regard to Japan's history. And that's totally ok with me. If you want to insist on the opposite then the burden of proof rests with you. We must start with Japan being pre-Christian....that is the historical and objective reality. Now, if you, or anyone else, wants to suggest any degree of Christian influence you must provide clear and convincing evidence of this situation. We do actually know quite a lot in this respect so the historical record is pretty reliable. However, samurai walking around in the 17th century sporting poorly disguised Christian/ death penalties isn't something I've found any reference to in my social studies of Edo period Japan. And that is essentially what I'm talking about. Show evidence of Edo period warrior class people in public with such obvious Christian iconography and I'll eat my tabi. If these are secret Christian symbols how is it we, after a couple of hundred years and a universe of cultural divide, are so able to see them as Christian symbols? We see what we want to see.....the biggest danger to objectivity.

true grit, Stephen, naturally

My nephew worked with me for three months, he had 'acid hands' so he had to go... Thankfully my hands aren't corrosive...but I have been accused of being abrasive.

Michael thank you for the quick history lesson. You actually made my point for me rather well. The tsuba we're discussing are mostly Edo period, ie; post 1600, when Christianity was officially illegal. Persecutions starting in the late 1590's and lasting about 40 years. What I was saying was that any Samurai after that point would be unlikely to be wandering around with an obvious badge such as is suggested here. And while you may claim that much of Japan didn't know a lot about Christian iconography you can be sure that the officials of the government did and made sure that 'their eyes', their officials and informers, everywhere knew too. As for judging a culture by my standards, I think you miss the point. When it comes to reasoned thinking and proper research there are no cultural variables. Evidential requirements are the same everywhere in the world of academia. In fact, the first extract I ridiculed requires no knowledge of the subject at all to confidently mock. The glaring flaw in the claim ought to be self evident.

I reckon that if you have bear hands ( aren't they properly called paws? ) then gloves would probably be a good idea. Although...finding gloves big enough might be difficult. Is this a second amendment corollary?

So if I found this hidden in a tsuba I was restoring there'd be no question. I'm not saying I did find HIM in a tsuba... Buddy Jesus patron Deity of hammers.

Japanese tosogu scholarship....critical thinking not required. So carefully hidden we can see them clearly today. Defying the Shogunate and professing the illegal faith would result in the death of one's family and self, by crucifixion or burning alive, and the confiscation of all the family's property. I can't imagine such a risk would be courted by wearing such obvious signals on one's swords. Do these theorists think the Shogunate was blind or just utterly ignorant?

In my opinion the tsuba in question is a modern cast copy, fwiw.

Darcy looking through the various recipes recorded in Natsuo's workshop note books for kinsabi and playing with them yesterday I rather suspect the film on the wave menuki you had is in fact a mix of copper sulphate and kunroku, or frankincense. Frankincense crops up in a number of old recipes and in this case seems to deliver something of a varnish-like effect. Frankincense is a sort of aged plant resin.

Shakudo might be mistakenly be described as a black bronze but beware ... fakes may also be cast in brass/bronze alloy which can easily be patinated a convincing black colour. Genuine antique menuki are unlikely to be brass or bronze.

Darcy, methinks you're trying too hard to find a problem. Kin-sabi is/was very obviously, historically speaking, a poetic/metaphoric description of an artificially induced effect that pre-dates modern scientific analysis. I don't think this poetic term literally implied gold was rusting any more than Ro-gin meant that silver was getting cloudy like the moon or karasugane really was an alloy made from bits of crow. Some contextual understanding of Japanese metalworking culture may be useful. I've described the method and typical mixtures used. This is not a mystery for traditionally trained metalworkers in Japan....well, at least the older ones yup, on this we're agreed...I did try to make that clear in my post that Ian helpfully quoted. and I'm sorry but I can't help but reply to this... 1 and 2 are fine but why the insistence on room temperature in no:3? This is an assumption not worthy of a serious scientific examination. By demanding that this process take place at room temperature you're imposing a limitation of your own imagining not any actual evidence. Why do you insist kin-sabi happen at room temperature, especially as I've already described it as an artificially induced effect? But the truth is gold can and does oxidise, or 'rust' This is from wikipedia only because I can't be asked to scan or type in pages of reference books from my library. This oxide is in fact present in kin-sabi so the scientific, goldsmith approved, reality is that kin-sabi can actually contain real 'gold rust'. Work by Prof. Ryu Murakami has demonstrated this point, it's all in Japanese but I'm getting translations done and hope to publish much of his work at some point. more here; https://www.americanelements.com/gold-oxide-1303-58-8 there's the gold rust molecule ...ok, challenge accepted. To see AuO2 try here http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Structure.26944210.html