paulb

Dear Fabian, you are very lucky being based in Liverpool. It is the home town of one of the best dealers in the UK, Bill Tagg of Liverpool Militaria. Bill has had some health issues recently and I am not sure how much time he now spends in his shop in Liverpool but He is extremely helpful and a very reliable man to deal with. He was a major help to me in my earlier days Also you are within a stones throw of the meeting place for the Northern Token Soceity. Again full of enthusiatic people who will offer great help as you start. Good luck on your road Best Regards Paul

Dear Micko My name is not Pauly nor am I dealer. Of course dealers need to make a profit otherise they wouldnt be able to survive. Guess what that is pretty much the aim of those selling on Ebay too. I think the problem I have with your original post is that you are prepared to question and believe some faceless supplier on ebay, be they dealer or not but are then writing off all other dealers. I dont know if thats what you intended to suggest but thats how it read. Over numerous years people have posted their Ebay purchases here in great hope only to be roundly dissappointed to find that their national treasure is in fact a fake. Can you buy good swords on Ebay I am sure you can as I am equally sure you can win the lottery. To suggest Ebay offers a better or safer route to purchase than a dealer of good reutation (and I repeat I am not a dealer) is wrong.

Thanks for your enlightening comments Guido (actually I havent read them yet I keep getting distracted, cant think why ) Just to prove I am a philistine. All but two of the swords (all the better ones) currently in my collection were bought on line. The difference being I knew the dealers very well personally and by reputation. Each of them had a no nonsence return policy and all of them prodcued very detailed images an descriptions of what they were selling. If I were based in Japan or the USA I would probably also prefer to buy swords in hand. Unfortunately in my part of the world there are few of the same quality (other than those that occassionally appear in the larger auction houses) as you can find in either of these countries. So I have to rely on online sales and decent people. So far that has worked well for me. Agree with comments about the polish the key factor is whichever way you go have it done well, if a good proffessional polisher recommends something listen to them

Dear Micko The subject of buying from Ebay, its merits and risks have been discussed here to the point of tedium. If you run a search you will find every opinion expressed many times over. Are there good swords sold on Ebay? depends on your definition of good, but certainly there are some reasonable blades which appear from time to time. These are far outweighed by the poor and the downright fraudulent. Should the novice buy from Ebay?... No Are all dealers corrupt and only out o make a fast buck?...no If you feel sufficiently knowledgable and confident to buy swords on ebay and enjoy it then carry on but it is not something I personally would recommend to beginners. Equally I could certainly not buy there in preference to buying from a reputable dealer. Regards Paul

said it all before when the last one took place For once Brian you and I disagree. I will keep the remainder of my grumpy old git opinions to myself on this one!

Christian, some general information you probably already know but just in case. founder of Mino tradition Kanuji was originally a tegai smith. he moved to Mino and his work is known as Yamato Shizu. later students work labelled either Shizu or naoe Shizu. The point is that Shizu work has its origins in Yamato Tegai and then took on some Soshu influence following Kaneuji's time as one of Masamunes 10 imortant students. Therefore trying to distinguish between Tegai and Yamato Shizu based only on an altered nakago is I would suggest near to impossible BTW it is even more complicated than above because teagi students of kaneuji who remained in Yamato are also known as Yamato Shizu

I have dealt with them for many years buying mainly books. I bought one sword from him which was as described and the transaction very smooth. I also bought a Kodzuka from him which proved to be a modern copy. Overall I think his prices are high (except books) and I am not too confident about his fittings, swords look ok but at the top end of what you wuld expect to pay.

I might be over reacting but dont others find it scary that people are making suggestions like this? You would think that with th increasing amount of information about stupid requests/suggestions would be a thing of the past Apparently not. I wonder if the suggestion would have been any different if the person thought it might be an antique blade? I am sad to say I think it would have been excatly the same God help us :?

Hi Jacques Yes i agree with you about the utsuir on this it looks strange re poorly made tanto I have seen many in poor condition and some very average late ones but I cant say I have seen poorly made koto tanto blades . Can you share some examples please?

Morning Rick, your post raises a question I hadn@t considered before.When thinking about Kazu Uchimon I tend to look at wakazashi and katana, basically fighting swords for lower ranking samurai or foot soldiers. Tanto tend to be thought of, at least by me, as personal protection weapons for more senior Samurai. This being the case there was never the volume demand there was for the other types of weapon. This is borne out by the relatively low numbers of Tanto that exist today. If this is the case one would assume the smiths did not use the mass production teachniques associated with kazu uchimono and the vast majority of tanto were made with greater care.

Jeremy I am not sure what you think you have achieved or why you are happy about it. None the less if you do submit this sword to shinsa I wish you luck. Based on the examples shown here I doubt it will be a postive outcome but it would not be the first time I have been wrong and am sure it wont be the last. regards Paul

yes please Markus

Jeremy, I wasnt going to join in on the later discssion but as the first to respond to your original mail I thought I should. I do not know what motivated you to post the mail, especially in the way you did. The implication, deliberate or otherwise, was that as a novice you had bought a sword and were placing great weight on the "papers" you had with it. The whole tone adopted was one of an enthusiatic beginner. I didnt say it was gimei (though I confess I still have severe doubts it is right) What I said was that you should submit it for shinsa and that the papers you illustrated did not say anything about the blades authenticity. What were you trying to do exactly? if it had NBTHK Papers why didnt you say so? even with very basic knowledge you must be aware that they carry more weight thean the registration document. All in all I fail to understand your motives or what you hoped to achieve. Whatever it was I hope you have satisified yourself. Like the ohers I would like to see the NBTHK papres because as has also been said the images you have posted of the sword do not look like most of the illustrated examples I have seen and if yours is right it is worth keeping images for reference. Regards Paul

Martin, As per Chris' comment I think having both papers would make no difference when compared to having just the Hozon paper. Chris I agree the dealers price depends on whether he is buying or selling, if he cant make any money there is no point in doing either. The only thing I would add is that for those of us with limited access to the market I think the best way is still to develop a relationship with a number of good dealers whose judgement you trust and who know what you are looking for.

Dear Jeremy, If this were an authentic Shinaki it would be a valuable sword. He is one of the top 4 or 5 shinto smiths and very highly regarded and his work sought after. As a result there are many, many fakes of his work, some of them of good quality. The paperwork you have is as has been suggested meaningless with regard to the blades authenticity. To realise its potential value it would need to be submitted to Shinsa. Until that is done the majority of the market (other than maybe some very knowledgeable people willing to take a risk) would treat it as gimei and price it as such. The value would reflect this. regards Paul edit BTW I have seen as many of those papers as there are swords legally held in Japan. As Andreas says it is a legal requirement to register swords there and this certifies it has been registered.

Hi Arnold thanks for sharing your thoughts all of which make sense. I agree that one cannot make a "price list" for swords, or indeed any other antique or art work, the pirce is totally governed by what a buyer is willing to pay and the many factors you mention all play their part. this doesnt mean one could not suggest an anticipated price range, auction houses do it all the time with their estimates (also often get it totally wrong ) I think another two points you made were also very important namely Is the paper the upper limit of what the blade is capable of achieving? this will make a significant difference. I have seen two very similar Yamato blades with TH papers one had not been submitted for higher papers the other had and failed. The price label was significantly different (from memory almost double) The other is who is setting the prices. My opinion was as a collector Kunitaro san is a dealer so how he views market values and prices is bound to be different from mine. So while I agree with you it is an impossible task to create a water tight accurate price I think it a worthwhile exercise to consider a likely range.

I remember that one too Peter (mainly because I missed it on ebay ) It re-appeared a while later on one of the main dealer sites, I think being sold on consignment. It had been polished and although it had some condition issues ( areas of core steel showing) it was still a very good buy at the time At the risk of sounding a a bit syrupy the best find on this site in the years I have been visiting it is a lot of really decent and knowledgeable people who are willing to share their time and know how. Very few places where you could find such a high level of international co-operation around a fascinating subject.

Thank you Kunitaro san It was difficult for me not to let my own prejudcie influence me. I am not a great fan of Sukesada or I am afraid to say Kiyomaru. Knowing how rare Kiyomaro blades are I can well believe your estimates. The most expensive blade I ever saw sell was a Kiyomaru (ex Festing collection) which I believe was sold for more than $400k I am not sure what if any papers it had but know it as purchased by a well known dealer in Japan. thank you for an interesting exercise. Best Regards Paul

Dear Kunitaro san I would like to rise to the challenge although with so many factors effecting the number and personal preferences playng a part I expect to be along way off: 1) Osuriage mumei/unsigned katana 73cm good condition. attributed as Rai-Kunitoshi or Ichimonji or Norishige, etc. 2) Signed and Dated Bizen Sukesada Katana. 69cm Ubu nakago Good condition. 3) Signed Shinshinto Kiyomaro Katana 75cm, good condition swords numbered from above...........1 rai/ichimonji...........2 Sukesada...........3 Kiyomaru a) no paper, according to the seller........1. $15-20k.......... 2.$7-10k.................3. $7-10K b) NBTHK Tokubetsukicho.....................1.as above.......... 2.as above..............3. as above c) NBTHK Hozon..................................1. $20-30k .......... 2.$10-15K..............3 $20-25K d) NBTHK TH..................................... 1.$25-35k .......... 2. $15-20k..............3. $25-$30k e) NBTHK Juyo....................................1. $35-60K .......... 2.$30-40k..............3.$50-100K f) NBTHK Tokubetsu-Juyo.................... 1.$100-150K.......... 2.$75-100k............3. $150-200 Thinking: Older NBTHK papers have been discredited over the years. If a seller believed the paper was right they should re-submit for new ones. By leaving the old papers there they create doubt and dont add any value over 1 Blades by important smiths/schools that only have TH papers suggest that they are not in sufficiently good condition to achieve Juyo and are therefore not the very best. While rarity adds something to the value for better schools/smiths the improvement in price over Hozon will not be so great. Prices on Juyo will be greatly affected by rarity and condition. There are areasonable number of Ichimonji and Rai Kunitoshi Mumei O-suriage blades in existence there are very few Kiyomaru Tokujuyo are the best available outside Japan and to achieve this level must be in first rate condition. After that rarity and condition would play the major part. Although the Sukesada is ubu they are not uncommon The Kiyomaru would command a very high price. All above based on personal opinion and if I had an infinite bank account what I would expect to pay. As I dont I will just have to dream

Matt, I agree with Chris and it is impossible to make a general "fit all rule". For what it is worth I have summarised my thinking below which could well be misguided. 1. As Chris suggested It is impossible to generalise and compare values for different smiths. i.e. in my view a hozon papered Awataguchi Yoshimitsu would be worth much more than a Juyo kongobyoe blade. 2. If you compare blades by a given smith and of similar quality, being a Juyo rahter than TH or Hozon increases a swords saleability and market value. At one time I thought the relative value doubled but now I think probably not so much maybe 50 -60% increase. This is more important in the west than in Japan. 3. Likewise Tokubetsu Hozon seems mainly significant to western buyers where they see it as an added quality statement and therefore enhancing value. I think in Japan the tendency has been to authenticate with Hozon and for many that is enough because they know the quality of what they have. However as they sell on a broader world market higher level papers have become significant. The NBTHK now require a sword has TH papers before they will accept it for Juyo shinsa so I would expect to see more TH blades appearing on the market (particulalry those that dont make Juyo) As has been said here many times, buy the sword not the paper and its only true value is what someone is prepared to pay for it. Owning a juyo or tokubetsu Juyo should not be the aim. Owning (if you ever do which is a debate in itself) a beautiful piece of crafted history that appeals to you and you enjoy is what counts.

Hi Dick, I think it stands happily on its own. having said that the other volumes probably represent some of the most useful texts in English available and at a very low price when compared to other reference works be they in Japanese or English. Despite having a reasonable library before Markus published these they were still well worth buying and I am very glad to have them.

picking up on Chris's point re "double quench" I agree totally. Nijuba refers to a double hamon rather than double quenching. It is formed as part of and at the same time as the hamon and describes activity within or just above the hamon.

Hi Jim, I agree with Mariusz regarding this. Examples of Nijuba I have seen and seen described show lengths of activity, usually nie based that sit over or below the hamon. They are not contiuous along the whole length of the blade. I will see if I can find some images and send you but they look very different from what you see here. I cant confirm whether it is caused by the scanner or the polish but it isnt a feature of the quenching.

This is strange, I cant remember seeing anything so vivid before. It re-opens the ongoing debate about what utsuri is. Probably an over simplistic view but I tend to think of descriptions of hada or jigane as relating to the composition of the raw material used and the way it is forged. Although utsuri is effected by material used I tend to think of it as a creation of the quenching process. therefore describing what is seen here in terms of hada as well as calling it utsuri is a little confusing. From what I can see on the image posted I dont think this looks like a function of the hada it appears to be very extreme and vivd utsuri (strong antei as well) The nearest description I would think of is jifu but as suggested above it is very extreme and lacks the subtle beauty seen in the jifu of older work. very dramatic but for me not particularly attractive.

thanks for that Peter, The leaflet he gave me was non specific and just stated no weapons were permitted. With this in hand it isnt surprising a post office worker would get confused. As said it was his opinion that the exclusions would take effect from July. Lets see how it develops but hopefully they will offer clearer guidlines to their employees