paulb

As with all schools there are some very good (and very bad) examples. this is true of Bizen and Mino of this time as well as Bungo, Mihara Enju and on and on. Another problem with Bungo is that they tended to copy many different styles. This means it is difficult to pigeon hole them which in a land and system that thrives on order and conformity this creates a problem. On the other hand the fact the Bungo smiths were able to copy such a varied range of styles suggests at least some of them were very skillful. The bulk of their work may be seen as workmanlike and lacking artisitc merit but their best is something worth seeing

Stu, last I heard there was a backlog for Hozon papering and it was taking several months to get through the process. The appraisal itself will be done in minutes, but there is a limit to how many the panel can do in one session. Eacg one then needs to be photographed and a paper prodcued which adds to the time taken regards Paul

Martin, can you post a scan of the paper? Mino Senjuin is a school rather than province and smith a little like Yamato Shizu or Naoe Shizu It is a mino school with roots in the Yamato Senjuin tradition.

dont worry Peter I have been involved in this subject for 30 years and still dont regard my self as educated in it. I think it would be very stupid to assume I was. I am however happy to keep on learning. There was a wonderful deifintion of an expert taht appeared on here a while ago "Often wrong but never in doubt" it somtimes seems very applicable :D

Justin, I would be interested to hear the view of others but my understanding is that when the NBTHK say it needs further research it generally means they are not totally happy with the mei or that the style of workmanship does not match what they would expect for the named smith. This doesn't necessarily mean it is bad just that they are not 100% confident. on the other hand it is close enough to what they would expect for that smith and of good enough quality not to reject it out of hand. Not sure if this adds anything to your research but hope it helps a little Regards Paul

Careful Mariusz you are beginning to sound like someone else I know For the sake of clarity: I understand and agree with your point that no koto tanto (I have never seen one) was made in Shinogi zukuri. There are koto blades which have been recycled, shortened and remounted as wakazashi, tanto, I have even seen the top 6 inches of a beautiful Yamashiro tachi blade made in to a WWII pilots dagger.

Dave There is an inexpensive two volume publication on Sue Koto work. It was written by Mr. Yoshikawa of the NTHK and trnslated by Gordon Robson (who has a great interest in Kanebo work) I think these works are still available via the JSSUS and contain quite a lot of information on this school and its works. As Chris saya they were regarded as generally utillitarian (a bit like Tkeda and Echizen work) but as with these others there are some exceptionally good pieces amongst the rest. It is worth invesrigating your sword further to see what you can find Regards Paul

Hi Alex, I have seen videos of several leading modern smiths using a mechanical hammer. Pure economy (I am guessing) as it is cheaper to use than two hammer men.

at the risk of being controversial I think Kotetsu is overated. He is too inconistant. I have seen some really average work by him. I can happily add Kiyomaro

Hi Jean, As is often the case in this subject I doubt there are any clearly defined lines and it will depend on a number of factors combining together. At a guess I think these would be: 1. Quality of work 2. Condition. If it has been shortened the mei should still be intact also there should be no doubt as to the authenticity of the mei or the work 3. Rarity 4. Importance of the smith. What might be acceptable in a Shigekuni might not be in a lesser smith. As an exercise I tried to think of the top smiths I would be happy to see as an exception. I came up with the following: 1. Nanki Shigekuni 2. Inoue Shinkai 3. Shodai Tadayoshi (possibly Sandai as well) 4. Kunihiro That is my early monring list I am sure as the day progresses I will think of other smiths I ould like to make an exception for.

Hi Mariusz, From the few examples I have seen I have always considered Kyo work to have a much finer, or smoother (perhap satin) finish. This looks more rustic than anything I have seen of theirs, which I know is not too many. I would lean towards Owari. Edit: oops sorry my mail followed your post Just for once Imight have been right bout fittings

Below and with thanks to Danny Massey for having these listed on his website is the NBTHK standard regarding Juyo submission Juyo Token 1) Blades made in a period from Heian to Edo, having Tokubetsu Kicho, Koshu Tokubetsu Kicho, Hozon or Tokubetsu Hozon papers, of extremely high quality workmanship and state of preservation, and judged as close to Juyo Bijutsuhin, may receive Juyo Token paper. 2) Blades that meet the criteria given above and made in or before Nambokucho may receive Juyo Token paper even if they are mumei. Blades made in Muromachi and Edo periods, as a rule, have to be ubu and zaimei to receive Juyo Token paper. The terminology and using "as a rule" suggests that this is a general requirement but there may be exceptions. With somebody who many regard as one of the greatest Shinto smiths it seems reasonable to make an exception if the shortening still left no doubt as to the maker and did not impact on the quality of the blade.

Hi Ford and Chris, I dont dispute what you are saying. Although I lack your eloquence let me try and be a little clearer in what I am getting at. I have absolutely no doubt that studying any form of art and understanding its context can only add to understanding and appreciation. If I didnt believe that I would have spent the majority of my adult life studying swords. My original mentor beat in to me "The more you study the more you will understand why you like something" However to reach that point something in a work has to appeal to the observer. I can still remember being overwhelmed when I saw my first blade, I couldnt tell you why it had such a great appeal at the time but it did at a very basic "thump in the gut" level. I felt exactly the same way when seeing the work of particular painters in the past. Subsequent study has helped me understand what it is that appealed to me and how these artists were able to stimulate that reaction. Where I was trying to differentiate, and I am not suggesting this is what either of you were getting at, is the body of people within the art world who create an aura of mystique around something trying to prove they know more, understand better or are more perceptive and atuned than everyone else. This results in a large number of people being turned off a subject I think this is somethign similar to Brian@s point in the other post where those with less knowledge are nervous to admit they dont like something if the experts tell them how wonderful it is. Bottom line Successful art stimulates at many levels. The greatest art can create a considerable emotional response from someone without them really understanding why Dedicated study can and does enhance appreciation and helps one understand why a given work effects us as it does.

Chris, This opens up a complete new can of worms. If a work of art has mass appeal, which by deifinition means it also appeals to a less sophisticated and knowledgable audience, does this mean that the artist or his work is less capable or sophisticated? or is he so skilled that his art appeals at a pure emotional level so is infact extremely perceptive and sophisitcated. Ulitimately art is a basic form of communicaton. If the observer needs years of study to appreciate a piece then the maker has failed at this very basic level. I accept and fully support that study and learning can greatly enhance appreciation. However much that is wrong with the art world today is the "Oh only those with the sophisiticated taste and perception can appreciate this work" attitude which one sees so often in London and New York galleries. The Emperors new clothes springs to mind. All art can and should be appreciated at multiple levels, this does not deminish the work or the viewer it just means we are different (thank God).

being a caricature horse is what I liked about it.

still think "blossoms" rather than moon may be it is an extremely rare flowering pine tree :?

Hi Ford, It is incredibly difficult to be totally subjective and not let personal tastes come in to the equation. So while I try and justify the following objectively I might just be trying to prove that what I like is best! Really like the first and last for similar reasons. In the first trying to create that organic, almost abstract form without the design becoming contrived takes huge skill and I think the make really pulled it off with this piece. The ground looks naturally formed a result of natural decay rather than carving. The last one a similar natural effect is acheived in carving the branches of the tree, they hang under their own weight and look very natural and almost melancholy. I think the horse is incredible and brilliantly worked. I admit I am not a great dragon fan so this one has immediately less appeal . The structure while well executed looks as though the maker really had to work at it. It has a stiff and contrived appearance. The tree with the blossom is innovative and I havent seen anything like that before but it is a little over fussy (again subjective taste on my part)

pm sent

Hi Ted, I agree with you regarding the authentic pieces. Ultimately the artefact is worth what the market will stand and acording to Bonhams there were several bidders there who felt what was on offer was worth the prices (at least two of them did) The one that causes me concern is the one illustrated at the beginning of the thread which I believe to be far beyond "dodgy". I think it is an outright fake. If this is sold supposedly with provenance then it throws the provenance of the other pieces in to doubt. According to Bonhams they had removed a Chinese fake so they must be aware that all was not as it seemed. When I pointed them towards this one they immediately went off to investigate. If people want to pay zillions for something that is up to them however when they do it they should be confident a major auction house is describing it correctly.

I wrote to Bohams quierying the fake blade. They claim they had withdrawn the obvious fake from the sale. I pointed them towards the illustration and the fact that the sword sold for more than 20K. They claim that there were more than 6 buyers willing to compete with each other to pay these high prices which also took them by surprise. I feel their attitude leaves something to be desired in this. The feeling one gets from the answers is that if an idiot is prepared to pay the money they are happy to take it. If they continue to claim this sword is correct it raises serious question marks about their competence.

While I would also welcome the opportunity to see another Shinsa in the UK I think we need to understand that the responsibility for making this happens lies as much or more with us as potential beneficiaries of the event as it does those organising it. Having been involved to a greater or lesser extent in the organisation of the last two NTHK shinsa's in the UK ( as a helper only) I can confirm the considerable amount of effort required and given on a voluntary basis to making these events happen. In both events while there has been a lot of initial verbal enthusiam and commitment the organisers invetitably have to spend a huge amount of time following up with people who provisionally book slots and then fail to confirm, forget to pay or generally just drop out. In both the events we were eventually over subscribed but it took great effort to actually ensure sufficient places were booked to cover costs. As seems to happen after all such events those who were not satisfied or dissapointed with the results they got continued to complain both directly and publically on message boards about how inaccurate the results were. (strange that those who get a better than expected attribution never complain about accuracy) This can inevitably demotivate and reduce ones enthusiasm for doing it again. I must stress this happened in only a very few instances but those few managed to create a disproportionate amount of noise and negative feeling. So at the end of the day I think people are left wondering whether it is actually worth the effort. I think it is also the case that the overall quality of swords seen on the second event was lower than that seen on the first. Basically there is not sufficient movement in the market to enable new pieces to appear in the space of a couple of years. I think that when the NTHK NPO looked at running an event more recently in the UK they also reluctantly pulled out as there was not sufficient interest to cover the costs. I am sure Chris can confirm this. Sorry to sound a negative note but if we are to see another event in the UK whether by the NTHK or the NTHK NPO I think we need to demonstrate commitment to making it happen and to ensure we understand what the shinsa panel is doing and how (i.e expressing an opinion) and set our expectations accordingly. We also need to understand that skilled though they are, they cannot make an accurate judgement on out of polish poorly maintained blades where no detail is visible. If you cant see anything in a blade nor will they.

KM Strange the change in stand between buyer and seller. When buying everyone on the board says only buy from someone with a return policy and dont buy from anyone who has a no return clause. Now you are recommending the exact opposite approach when selling. do you think this might given the impression of Dual standards :?

Hi Jacques so have I but I am not sure what your point is? I am not suggesting that very experienced seller is selling at cost (proffessional dealers need to make a living too) what I am saying is you are more likely to get value for money from longer term collecors and established dealers than you are from Ebay. sorry Jacques I didnt see your second sentence. I would a gree with you 100% but unfotunately that is not always possible. In fact I have not bought a sword from a UK arms fair for more than 15 years, the quality of swords seen at fairs here is generally far below what can be seen from on line sellers (there are always exceptions) Unfortunately the pricing doesnt reflect this

Dear Junichi I will leave starting a new thread based on what and where was your first buy to somone else. But I would like to comment on a point you raised regarding the golden age of collecting. When I started in the 1980s I was told stories of being able to pick up long swords in the 50s and 60s for 30/- ($3) and "Harikiri knives" for £1 ($1.50) At the time when I was paying £250 for a Showato I thought the golden days were long gone and I would never reach the collection I aspired to. I still havent, but I have probably got a lot further than I expected. Today new collectors listen with envy when my contemporaries talk about their beginnings of buying swords for a couple of hundred pounds. The point I am trying to make is there was no golden age. Straight after the war trying to find a few pounds for something like a sword was almost impossible (I am told, I wasnt there). For me finding 2-300 a year to put to my hobby was equally tough. Beginners should not be put off by thinking they are too late. They just have to start and work towards a goal. Over time they can look back at their beginnings as "the golden age". (BTW in terms of availability and information now is much more of a golden age than the last quarter of the the 20th century)

Actually Adrian I think the only likely place you will get a real bargain is from an experienced seller. By that I am not asuggesting you will buy a national treasure that they have failed to notice but an experienced collector understands the current market worth of something and prices accordingly. Equally when longer serving collectors want to buy something it often means they need to sell stuff. It then becomes a balance between how much they want the new thing and how much they are prepared to sacrifice in selling something to achieve their goal. Often they are trying to achieve break even on what they are selling rather than needing a large profit. There have been many swords sold on this site (and yes some have been mine so my opinion is not totally unbiased) where the seller has sold at or below their purchase price to facilitate a new buy. So I would suggest if you substitute "value for money" for bargain then an experienced seller will give you the best deal 99 times out of 100. Chris you have my sympathy regarding your low end sales. In my recent sales efforts (soon to be re-started) I had more questions and requests for images, details about the boshi etc etc on blades that were a couple of hundred dollars than I did on those priced at several thousand. I guess in all of us the hunter is still turned on and the search for the national treaure in a boot sale continues to a greater or lesser extent.