paulb

As Brian suggests it is difficult to assess based on the images. The Katana looks wrong apart from being signed katana mei the hiro character looks a long way off. The wakazashi looks closer to the nidai signature (wakazashi were signed katana mei) both the hiro and wara characters look close as far as can be seen. to be more confident would need some better images and more detail of the swords, size hada hamon etc. Regards Paul

Hi To make it easier to reply could you please sign your posts as per board rules. To help, and as you suggest it isn't easy, could you supply some more information regarding your sword such as dimensions and an image of the whole blade would also be useful. The style of the mei and the regular pattern of the hamon I think would suggest a later mino work (not my main area of interest and I am working from memory) but certainly some idea of size and shape would help to narrow it down good luck in the search Regards Paul

Since Peter's original post I have been trying to decide on an answer. I have finally concluded I cant. For many years I convinced myself that I liked Yamashiro and Yamato work and didn't like Bizen or Soshu blades. At some point I saw 3 x Rai Kunitoshi blades in quick succession which I found totally boring ( I have seen other work by him I adored) and soon after an Ichimonji and an Osafune blade I would have loved to included in any collection. The point is I do not believe it is possible (for me) to make a generalised decision that I like a particular school or period over and above another. There are particular swords I have seen that, regardless of maker or period, stand out above anything else . Based on pure percentages I tend to like more koto blades that I see than Shinto or Shin-shinto. Of Koto swords Yamashiro and some of their off-shot schools tend to produce consistent work with features that appeal to me. Of the swords I have studied those that I like the most are an Awataguchi Norikuni, an Aoe Tsunetsugu a Chogi an Inoue Shinkai and an early Enju blade. Having learned a sharp lesson I am trying to re-discipline myself to judge each sword I look at based on what it is rather than who made it and when. sorry early Sunday morning ramble over!!

Hi Brian, two character mei are very rare. I have only ever seen three authenticated examples. It is a long while since I studied Hizen mei in detail but certainly don't think the way this one is cut looks right. They are usually smoothly cut and this looks very "chippy" almost showa-to like. Cant see enough of the hada to comment. The hamon is certainly not the most common you would see in Hizen work although they did produce a surprising variety of styles. Based on what I can see I don't think it is right Regards Paul ps looking again the yasurimei also look wrong

Alex Wakazashi proper only appeared at the very end of the koto period. Prior to that the Tanto was the companion sword carried by Samurai. many Koto blades daito nagimaki and naginata have subsequently been converted in to wakazashi over time.In terms of quality I think you are absolutely right in fact if you think about it in the later Edo period most samurai were poor and the wealth resided with the merchant class. therefore many swords made for merchants had much richer koshirae than those used by samurai. There has been some talk in the past that smiths put less effort in to swords made for marchants but I think this can be discounted. They were committed to thier calling and wanted to produce the best they could. Also why would you produce an inferior product for that part of the market able to pay the highest prices?.

Hi Franco, A merry Christmas to you too. I am sorry I may have not been clear. There is nie present in both hada and hamon, there is just not as much as I would expect to see based on the way the work of the school is described. There is also a lot of other activity there such as chickei in the hada and inazuma, sunagashi within the hamon. Mike I think re-tempering will if anything create large and ugly patches of nie rather than make them disappear, but of course it will depend the temperature the blade is taken to through the process. There is certainly no other indicator of re-tempering on it but it is something to consider, if only to eliminate it as a possibilty. Regards Paul

Hi Alex, Yes you are right, but it depends a lot on what has happened in the period in between forging and now. The number of polishes, how the sword was used or stored. In reality we don't know what a kamakura period blade looked like new so we have to speculate. Luckily some have been treasured more or less since they were made so are well preserved, which makes the task easier. I think what I am getting at is I am tending to attribute this piece to a branch school copy because of the lack of nie. Before I jump to that conclusion I ought to think of other reasons the nie is lacking. If a copyist has the skill to add all the other activity (which are nie based) then the inclusion of ji-nie should not present a problem so why isn't it there? Just trying to work through potential attributions and as always the more answers I come up with the more new questions appear

Dear All I would appreciate some opinions regarding the presence or lack of it of nie on an older blade. Recently I have been looking at a tanto which I believe dates from late kamakura to early Nambokucho. It is single piece construction (I am assuming this because despite it's hard life there is no sign of core steel and the hada remains clear and beautiful) The blade shows all of the characteristics of the school concerned except for the amount of nie. This particular group is noted for the amount and quality of the ji-nie and ko-nie in the hamon. While this blade has both I would not describe them as prolific. Question: If we accept that nie is created by the prolonged application of heat to higher carbon steel within the composite of the blade it seems reasonable to assume that it is most visible on the blades surface. Therefore as a blade is polished the nie diminishes as more of the surface is removed. In a single piece construction blade is it possible that repeated polishing can reduce or even remove nie without obviously effecting the integrity of the hada. If this is the case it would explain why this particular work is lacking nie but still shows all the other characteristics of the school Of course this may just be wishful thinking it could equally be a copy by a lesser school using inferior material. I would be interested in peoples thoughts Regards Paul

Hi Clem, It really depends what stage you are at in your study. I think the vast majority here will have started with The Connoisseurs book by Nagayama. When it was translated in to English it was probably the most comprehensive reference available in a single volume. I still refer back to it. I use Markus' Kantei volumes a lot. These are translations of NBTHK kantei questions and are of great value. There are 4 volumes in all but the Koto and Shinto volumes are a good starting point and the supplements can always follow later. Another interesting work much discussed here is Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords by Nakahara. I think is well worth reading but would recommend it after you have taken in the information from the others. With those as a start I think you wil get a decent foundation. You can then add to it looking at the more specific works on schools or periods that you find of particular interest. hope this helps

Hi Clem, Look for any of the books by Markus Sesko. The are all available from Lulu.com Good value and a lot of information form excellent sources. Good luck on the beginning of your journey Best Regards Paul

Hi George I think you make a very good point in saying that beautiful swords were made in all periods. I collect koto but that doesn't mean I cannot enjoy, appreciate or lust after work of other periods. I have seen Hizen work, blades by Shinkai and the shin-shinto Gassan smiths and indeed many others that I would gladly include in a collection. It is is simply when having to make a choice my preferences tend toward Kamakura period work. I am a little concerned about your use of the term "traditionalist" it is used in the same way others have talked about "elitist" when complaining about people who promote studying top quality work. Love of traditional work does not exclude appreciation of more modern pieces.

Without wanting to re-fuel the continued debate regarding the quality of Showa-To v's earlier swords, which has been often debated with some feeling, I think it is misleading to suggest that swords produced in the second world war were a positive evolutionary step from what went before. As George mentioned what did occur was the introduction of modern mass production methods that enabled the country to produce functional arms for their forces. That is not the same as evolving or improving on the slower traditional methods and material. They were producing something that was fit for purpose. Not being a Showa-To fan I have not studied the swords in any depth but I have seen some blades made by Sadakatsu and Yasukuni smiths that are of very good quality. Personally I do not believe these come close to the quality of work produced in the Kamakura period (mind you I don't think anything else does either). However I also accept that this view is based in no small part in the "sword as an art object" viewpoint and my own prejudices rather than pure functionality. So while I can believe there were good blades produced in the Showa period, to suggest that they were in some way the peak of an evolutionary process is inaccurate. They were made differently, with different material to meet a need not as a conscious attempt to improve on what went before but more likely an attempt to emulate the high quality products of the past.

Hi Gabriel I cant really tell from the images but it certainly looks strange. I don't want to forget the fact that the blade looks interesting. The Horimono looks later and not to my taste but the shape of the blade hada and hamon all look to have merit (again from what can be seen from the image). The artificial patina and strange mei could have lead to the original description of this being a naginata naoshi. I don't think it ever was a naginanta and was made this way. The artificial patination may have been done at some point to add credibility to the mei. Whatever the background I think it is one to be appreciated for its merits rather than focussing on what is or might be wrong.

I agree the mei looks strange. But please ignore suggestions to have it removed until many more people (with a lot more knowledge) have looked at it.

Dear KM evolution should suggest development and improvement. I am not sure this is either I would describe it more as degrading an art form in an attempt to appeal to a broader market. Nothing wrong with the idea I just don't believe it does anything to represent the original art. From when this first appeared it was clear I was in the minority on this and it is a purely subjective view but I feel this is more indicative of the need to link everything to celebrity or fad to enable it to gain recognition. It has nothing to do with evolving or improving the art form.

Hi Peter Your reaction is much the same as mine when this originally appeared. At that time the majority seemed to think this was beneficial to the subject and they may well be right. I am reassured by your comments that I am not the only one who finds this troubling. either that or I am not the only miserable old **** I still think this does a great disservice to the art but feel I am in an increasing minority.

not specifically Naminohira but I have seen examples and heard of others made in that area by adjacent schools at that time My concern is that you say it is suriage, I assume not O-suriage and the machi are in their original place? if not I would be concerned.

Not sure if either are realistic but: Top level Osafune school work Awataguchi Yoshmitsu or Kunimitsu Tanto

Alex I haven't read all of this thread but if you are asking for a reference for Nihonto.com then I can tell you that I have bought several swords from Fred over the years (and sold some to him as well) One of the best dealers (and a really decent person) involved in the subject. Totally dependable and honest and always willing to help. Regards Paul

I haven't joined in this discussion as the title specifically mentions collecting in the USA. Although my remaining swords were all bought from dealers in North America I have no direct experience of collecting there. However following up on Chris' point and based on direct experience. I think for any collector regardless of the field it is normal to start at the entry level, whether you are 20 or 50, it is rare for a complete beginner to splash out large amounts of cash on something they have no understanding of (I accept that it does happen and there are those with sufficient funds not to care if they get it wrong, but they are the minority) For most of the start is modest. I bought my first sword in 1983 for £225. I had a mortgage two young children and was living hand to mouth like everyone else at that time. Such a large purchase was a cause of major guilt on my part, but the intangible benefit of starting on this field was immeasurable. For many subsequent year I was limited to spending about £300 per year on the hobby, whether that was more mediocre swords, books or a part-x for something slightly better. Over the next 20 or so years it became a little easier to spend slightly more and also I had a number of pieces I could trade up. I have now largely stopped although I might still be tempted if the right thing appeared. But the swords I have are as good as I am ever likely to be able to obtain. This is not a result of being wealthy, I am not, nor have I made spectacular profits and what I have bought and sold. It is a matter of patience. In slowly building a collection and refining it. Making sure that each addition adds to the total (from a knowledge and aesthetic viewpoint rather than cash) and enjoying the journey. Part of the problem today is that new collectors seek instant gratification. Greater availability of information increases expectation and people want to start at the top.When they cant they get turned off. I still believe the market allows for the gradual and continual improvement of a collection and an increase in its monetary worth It just takes time and dedication. Sorry Sunday morning ramble after Australia thrashed the English in the first test match, oh yeah and its freezing here too!

Lucy, I cannot answer your question in detail but I think some members here have looked at such things. What I would say is that swords have always been expensive, and top level swords, i.e. by famous schools/smiths have commanded massive sums of money. There is a story of one Daimyo given the choice between a sword or a province opted to take the sword (don't know if it is true but it gives you some idea of how highly some work was valued.) More mundane mass produced blades were obviously much cheaper but still represented a major outlay for the user.

Sorry for the deviation from the original post but Jean is showing his age Since the clean air act some when in the 1960's the London "pea Soup" smog is a thing of the past ( last seen I think in 1965) All we have now are gentle mists rolling beautifully from water meadows through the streets of our historic capital :D

David As Jean says it depends where you are. If I were in Japan, South East Asia or Australia I would oil my swords. In my part of the UK and in the way they are stored I took the decision that they were better kept dry. The chances of doing damage to the polish from the repeated application of uchiko to remove oil seemed a greater risk, and to date I am comfortable with that decision. Like anything else in this field ultimately we must take responsibility for our own choices. I think 10 years ago the vast majority here oiled their swords, I know many now who choose not to. In the next 10 years maybe it will go full circle again.

David I live in Northumberland, so a lot colder and wetter than your tropical climate down south, but I have not used oil for more than 10 years. the only exception is when I am taking swords somewhere I will use a thin film of Choji while they are in transit. I am a little more concerned about you intent to display them out of their saya. Ignoring any potential injury risk which I am sure you have already considered, one reason for storing a blade in a shirasaya is that it forms and almost air-tight fit between saya and habaki, thus keeping, dust moisture or any other potentially damaging substance out. So while I dont think you need to oil your swords if they are stored in a modern centrally heated environment in the UK I do recommend they be stored in shirasaya.

nor do I