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Help translating, hopefully not a gimei or at least a good one

katana tachi

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#1 Mjordan8691

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Posted 09 February 2020 - 08:55 PM

So i grew up with this sword. Even named it kotetsu which apparently means iron....

Any way can some help translate this, I think it's a 45' but there's a small 38 on the spine of the tang and a long signature.

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#2 Mjordan8691

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Posted 09 February 2020 - 08:59 PM

More images for clarity

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#3 Mjordan8691

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Posted 09 February 2020 - 11:56 PM

BTW this not for commercial use, just closure
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#4 raymondsinger

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Posted 09 February 2020 - 11:59 PM

To start, the date is the 4th month of 1944.

#5 raymondsinger

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 12:02 AM

Limited to viewing on my phone for a few hours, but the mei may end with Yoshisada + KAO.

#6 SteveM

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 01:31 AM

建依別山囗善貞(花押)

 

Tateyoriwake Yama(?) Yoshisada + kaō

 

Tateyoriwake is an unusual name, originating in Japanese mythology, and appearing on at least one other sword posted to this site

http://www.militaria...ating-gendaito/

making me think it is a name used by a specific group or school of smiths. 

 

Yama-something Yoshisada would be the specific name of the swordsmith (or his art name). I can't make out the kanji after Yama. 


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#7 Mjordan8691

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 03:34 AM

I'll see if I can get a better pic later. Thanks though, that helps alot
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#8 Ken-Hawaii

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 05:03 AM

Please follow Brian's rules, & sign all of your posts with your first name, so we know how to address you. Adding it in your Profile signature is the easiest. Welcome to the forum.


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#9 Mjordan8691

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 05:05 AM

Could it be ritsumeikan ?
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#10 Mjordan8691

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 05:06 AM

Sorry on mobile gimme a sec
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#11 Mjordan8691

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 01:57 AM

建依別山囗善貞(花押)

Tateyoriwake Yama(?) Yoshisada + kaō

Tateyoriwake is an unusual name, originating in Japanese mythology, and appearing on at least one other sword posted to this site
http://www.militaria...ating-gendaito/
making me think it is a name used by a specific group or school of smiths.

Yama-something Yoshisada would be the specific name of the swordsmith (or his art name). I can't make out the kanji after Yama.

Sit down and broke out the old elbow grease, did some image editing, hope this helps.

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#12 k morita

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 02:11 AM

Hi,
The mei is 建依別山村善貞," Tateyoriwake,Yamamura(family name) Yoshisada " .
 


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#13 raymondsinger

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 02:16 AM

Matt, did you clean the nakago? I hope not, as that is extremely destructive to the natural aging of the nakago (just as you would not buff an antique coin).

#14 Mjordan8691

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 04:06 AM

I understand your concern but the blade has been through the development of a child since age 12 who had 4 older brothers and few friends. Also if it helps ease your pain. I'm hand sharpening it to return the blade to it's convex edge as a prior owner used a grinding wheel before me. Also after edging I'll polish the blade, clean it thoroughly then allow the blade to soak in oil soaked clothes for a few days to saturate the steel and preserve the finish.

It's long past it's prime, when I got it it was rusty and nothing but blade and nakano and sheath.
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#15 Mjordan8691

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 04:09 AM

I just want to know it's history so I can give it the respect it deserves, which truly it deserves much much much more. In a wierd way it was my childhood friend.
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#16 george trotter

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 04:39 AM

I know the blade is ruined, but you might like to have some info on the smith. He was an army swordsmith (star stamp) and is from Kochi prefecture, Tosa City.

He was born in Meiji 33 (3 April 1900) and was still making swords in 1977. Here is a page from the "Gendai Toko Meikan" by ONO 1971 p.110.

Regards,

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#17 Mjordan8691

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 08:05 AM

I know the blade is ruined, but you might like to have some info on the smith. He was an army swordsmith (star stamp) and is from Kochi prefecture, Tosa City.
He was born in Meiji 33 (3 April 1900) and was still making swords in 1977. Here is a page from the "Gendai Toko Meikan" by ONO 1971 p.110.
Regards,


Thank you very much. I'm excited to learn this. There is an inscription on the other side as well. If it's not to much, when I can I'll clear it up some and get a good pic.

I know you guys probably cringe at the mention of that but I'm just curious. The swords got a lot of sentimental value to it and that's what lead me hear to begin with searching for translations. I can't tell how long I've been digging around to be hear lol.

Thanks again too, it really means a lot to mean.
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#18 Brian

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 12:12 PM

It's not about cringing, it is about the fact that cleaning a nakago is a strict NO. Not something frowned upon, or bad manners, it is a NO, and you basically wave goodbye to half your value immediately.
And you may not care about that, but you are only looking after it for future generations and they may care. This one one of the prime rules of Japanese swords. That...and NEVER polish a Japanese sword yourself.
Legally, you can do what you like with it. But expect the same backlash you would get on an art forum when you say you are using your oil paints to touch up your old Monet painting.
Just fyi I guess..


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#19 Mjordan8691

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 03:17 PM

It's not about cringing, it is about the fact that cleaning a nakago is a strict NO. Not something frowned upon, or bad manners, it is a NO, and you basically wave goodbye to half your value immediately.
And you may not care about that, but you are only looking after it for future generations and they may care. This one one of the prime rules of Japanese swords. That...and NEVER polish a Japanese sword yourself.
Legally, you can do what you like with it. But expect the same backlash you would get on an art forum when you say you are using your oil paints to touch up your old Monet painting.
Just fyi I guess..


I understand that from a collectors view point, I'm actually learning a lot and I don't want you guys to think I'm dismissing these points. Any other sword I get later I'll certainly practice better care. Actually if there's somewhere you can direct me for dos and donuts that's be appreciated
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#20 raymondsinger

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 03:26 PM

Everything you have described and done, including 'hand sharpening', 'edging' and unnecessarily cleaning the nakago to remove patina on an already readable mei is a 'don't'. You cannot make the decision whether a sword is 'past its prime' on your own. Judgements about restorability need to come from a professionally trained togishi.


http://www.nbthk-ab.org/swordcare.pdf

#21 Mjordan8691

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 05:03 PM

This is a nice article thanks.
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#22 Mjordan8691

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 05:05 PM

So out of curiosity, how much does a togishi cost to have examine your sword what are typical shipping rates?
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#23 raymondsinger

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 05:39 PM

At a starting point, reach out to Robert Benson via his website. http://togishi.com







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