Shippo pattern or star maps?

[Bugyotsuji]

https://www.google.com/search?q=麻の葉模様&client=safari&hs=pXHq&sca_esv=8713684b3b83c52b&hl=en-gb&udm=2&biw=390&bih=699&ei=47Vbat-JG-6BhbIP2OjluAg&oq=麻の葉模様&gs_lp=EhJtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1pbWciD-m6u-OBruiRieaooeanmDIGEAAYBxgeMgYQABgHGB4yBhAAGAcYHjIGEAAYBxgeMgYQABgHGB5I2UhQyxlY1ENwA3gAkAEBmAFPoAHIA6oBATi4AQPIAQD4AQGYAgqgApkDwgIEEAAYHsICCBAAGIAEGKIEwgIIEAAYogQYiQXCAggQABgEGAcYHpgDAIgGAZIHAjEwoAfkDbIHATe4B5QDwgcDMS45yAcOgAgA&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-img

 

That one is of course Asa no Ha moyō

 

[Dan tsuba]

Thank you, Piers, for your post.

But I really don't know what you are trying to show?

Are you trying to show that those patterns are not similar to the patterns on the tsuba (shown below), or are you trying  to show that those patterns are similar to (which I don't think they are) the patterns on the tsuba shown below?

Thanks!

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

No Dan, I was answering John C, now on the previous page!

[Baka Gaijin]

Gentlemen, if I may interject.

 

In Pre-Modern Japan, as Piers comments, the shape that we understand to be similar to what the Western understanding of a star pattern was, is indeed the Asanoha Kamon 麻の葉 - Cannabis Leaf.

 

In the same manner as  a simple snowflake was depicted somewhat akin to the Covid Virus form until  the late  Edo period, a feudal lord named Doi Toshitsura the daimyo of the Koga Domain (now Ibaraki Prefecture)—became captivated by the winter snow.

Over two decades, he studied snowflakes using a imported Dutch microscope, documenting 86 different crystal shapes.

In 1832, he published Sekka Zusetsu ("An Illustrated Study of Snow Crystals"), making it Japan's first natural science treatise on snow. This work quickly sparked a massive trend, transforming scientific snow diagrams into popular fashion and textile designs.

 

Herewith the link to Doi Toshitsura's Sekka Zusetsu

 

https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/2536975/1/1

 

Furthermore, the star shape that was associated with the Rikugun has a much older background based in Shingon Mikkyo, being the summation of five deities and directions.

 

Confused?

 

I am, and I have been encountering these esoteric mysteries for many years, often with a bokuto cutting from the North Star direction.

 

"We are such stuff as dreams are made on..."

Edited July 18 by Baka Gaijin

[Dan tsuba]

Just received another reply to my question (shown on one of my posts on page 4) from an antique tsuba dealer in Japan.

 

"Hello, Dan sama,

Yes, that is a design based on constellations, arranged into a geometric pattern.

Have a nice day.

Best regards,"

[Matsunoki]

It is (imo) a bit of a shame that this thread degenerated into such a vitriolic bun fight. Maybe the way Dan first kicked it off or maybe a legacy from another topic were contributory factors?

 

But, if we look again at the tsuba that Dan first presented and if we completely ignore the sukashi shippo elements and leave just the brass studs or holes I suspect a great many on this forum would probably say “constellations” without too much effort. 

 

If we take into account the Japanese love for “hidden meanings” which often get debated on this forum (especially re tsuba) then it is not (imo) a massive stretch to think that to hide a constellation within another design ie “broken shippo” is perfectly feasible?

…or maybe the artist was not even trying to hide a constellation…..simply enhancing an otherwise rather visually boring design.

 

Just some musings. Shields to maximum.

[ROKUJURO]

It is perhaps a psychological problem. While many members would accept an interpretation and consent on it as one possibility among several others, the discussion ends when one individual insists on only HIS interpretation. 

If you watch a subject being repeated numerous times and guided strongly in only one direction, you know that the remark "just my opinion" is not meant sincerely. It is more a symptom of an obsession.  

For most people, the value of a discussion lies in the diversity of opinions and new facts they could possibly learn.

The term "beginner's mind" has been used here on the board a few times, but what does it really mean?
SHOSHIN (初心) is a Zen Buddhist concept that describes an attitude of openness, eagerness, and a lack of preconceptions when studying a subject, even at an advanced level.... (taken from the internet).

SHOSHIN avoids evaluating other's opinions, looking at them with open-minded interest and not opposing them with one's own opinion. 

[Dan tsuba]

Jean (Rokujuro),

 

There you go again, just being mean and rude.  You talk about a psychological problem in your above post, well you definetely have one!

 

You stated- "While many members would accept an interpretation and consent on it as one possibility among several others, the discussion ends when one individual insists on only HIS interpretation."

 

Well, obviously, you did not read the responses I received from some antique tsuba dealers in Japan or some of the other posts where their interpretation seems to be in agreement with mine on the motif of the tsuba.

 

Then you state in part of your post "It is more a symptom of an obsession." You are just being rude again, I guess that is your obsession!

 

Why do you always have to try to belittle and ridicule me?  Go find someone else to take your hostility out on!

 

[sabiji]

On 7/7/2026 at 5:30 PM, Dan tsuba said:

 

At least I have a Zen mind, beginner’s mind. 

 

My favorite Zen koan is, of course, “Honrai Mu ichi motsu.” 

 

“In the beginning, nothing exists.”

 

We ourselves create things and worry ourselves sick… over nothing!

 

Sometimes there doesn’t necessarily have to be a deep meaning behind motives. Especially during the Momoyama period, Kyoto flourished enormously due to economic reforms and became the center and trendsetter for many artisanal arts.

 

I’m thinking in particular of Nishijin, the area where the Nishijin silk weavers were based. In and around Nishijin, the Umetada and Goto families, Shoami artists, representatives of the Kano school of painting, Raku artists, the three “Sen schools” of the tea ceremony, and…and…and…

 

They benefited from the proximity of the Imperial Palace, as well as the seat of the Ashikaga Shogunate, and later Hideyoshi’s Jurakudai Castle and the associated estates of Hideyoshi’s vassals.

 

In short: Nishijin became a trendy fashion hub, spanning the spectrum from the refined, exquisite understatement of the Kyoto nobility, through the austere restraint of wabi-sabi, to the bold colors and abundance of gold and glitter that Hideyoshi favored.

 

Artists from various disciplines drew inspiration from one another. Tsuba shaped like silk spindles literally originated in Nishijin.  Umetada-Kinko tsuba are reminiscent of E-Garatsu or Kyo-Yaki ceramic motifs, while Ko- and Kyo-Shoami and Kyosukashi feature many geometric shapes, similar to those then in vogue in kimono patterns or display a random selection of motifs found on clothing. In NBTHK documents, the term “fabric pattern” (Monjo) is frequently encountered. Karakusa is found in ceramics, lacquerware, and tsuba. The Shoami school developed a zogan technique that imitates silk embroidery with gold and silver threads, later known in its elaborate form as “Kenjo.”

 

In my humble opinion, this “Shippo pattern” also falls under this basic concept, somewhat influenced by “Sabi,” because the pattern does not appear complete and only temporarily appears very subdued on the surface.

 

I do not mean to rule out the possibility that the regular, strict grid of the Shippo, in its various executions, consciously or unconsciously evokes constellations.

 

It would not be unusual in Japanese art to leave room for ambiguity.

As I said, it could mean that, but it doesn’t have to. The owner probably simply saw it as a stylish, decorative element on his koshirae, an expression of his aesthetic taste.

 

Honrai mu ichi motsu 

[ROKUJURO]

Thank you Thomas, 

very educational!

[Dan tsuba]

Thank you, Thomas (sabiji), for your post.

But I am old and slow (and not getting any younger!).

So, what do you mean in your post?

Do you mean that the tsuba I showed are not stars and constellations?

Do you mean that the tsuba I showed are stars and constellations?

Do you mean that the tsuba I showed are a combination of stars and partial Shippo patterns?

Do you mean the the tsuba I showed are just Shippo type patterns?

Do you mean that the tsuba I showed, it would just be up to the imagination of the viewer on what the motif on the tsuba represents?

Thanks!

 

[FlorianB]

Thomas,

this is what I call research! 

 

I think that’s the problem here from the beginning: an idea was too hastily presented to the public and not researched properly which takes certainly a longer time (not that AI instant research). 
Instead assumptions and speculations have been backing up the hypothesis.

Edited Wednesday at 04:53 AM by FlorianB

[sabiji]

13 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Vielen Dank, Thomas (sabiji), für deinen Beitrag.

Aber ich bin alt und langsam (und werde ja auch nicht jünger!).

Was genau meinen Sie in Ihrem Beitrag?

Meinen Sie, dass die von mir gezeigten Tsuba keine Sterne und Sternbilder darstellen?

Meinen Sie, dass die von mir gezeigten Tsuba Sterne und Sternbilder darstellen?

Meinen Sie, dass die von mir gezeigten Tsuba eine Kombination aus Sternen und Teilen des Shippo-Musters darstellen?

Meinst du, dass die von mir gezeigten Tsuba einfach nur Shippo-Muster sind?

Meinen Sie, dass es bei der von mir gezeigten Tsuba lediglich der Fantasie des Betrachters überlassen bliebe, was das Motiv auf der Tsuba darstellt?

Danke!

 

Just as an example: the collegiate church in Quedlinburg here in Germany is an important Romanesque building that was constructed between 1070 and 1130 and, fortunately, escaped destruction during World War II.

 

What’s particularly interesting are the pre-Romanesque decorative elements. They look very much like Celtic or North Germanic endless knots. When I asked a student who gives tours there and is studying art history why these decorative elements on such an important church didn’t look particularly Christian, she replied as follows:

 

1. That’s misleading! Because such knot patterns didn’t appear in Ireland or Northern Europe until the Christian era.

2. Their origin likely lies in Coptic art from Egypt and influenced both Europe and the Arab world, though it draws on ancient design motifs.

3. Variations can be found, among other places, in stonemasonry, woodcarving, calligraphy, as patterns on clothing, tapestries, weapon fittings, sword pommels, and much more.

4. The creators of the decorations in Quedlinburg were Lombard sculptors from northern Italy. The designs were taken from their pattern books and simply reflected the tastes of the time. And particularly in those German regions where the Romans had not ventured at the time, there was great interest in Lombard and Byzantine architectural styles.

5. Motifs that originated in earlier times can be reinterpreted and adapted regionally and culturally, and can thus take on a Christian meaning—just as churches were built on pagan sites of worship, or Christian holidays were modeled after pagan ones.

 

But I don’t want to digress here. To bring the focus back to the tsuba, I simply want to point out that the origin sometimes lies in quite mundane, popular decorative motifs from woven and embroidered patterns that were in fashion at the time.

 

I’m not concerned with claiming exclusive authority over the interpretation of what’s depicted, but simply with decorative elements—sometimes with folkloric or other religious backgrounds. These were taken up by artists, who in turn inspired other artists, who in turn inspired yet others, leading to different interpretations and executions—especially when they’re produced in larger series due to demand.

But since you’re expecting a specific answer: if I personally had to describe this particular tsuba from this thread, I would refer to the Shippo pattern. Perhaps with the addition that the brass pins (added later, perhaps?) do indeed resemble a (fictional) constellation. But as a representation of a specific constellation, this decoration would be too geometric according to Japanese understanding.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all! 

 

So, to continue. 

 

As you know, I have sent several emails to antique tsuba dealers in Japan. 

 

Up to now, I have received 3 responses (all shown in my previous posts). 

 

I may be getting a few more responses, we will see. 

 

Now, all the tsuba dealers in Japan that I sent my initial question to all have walk in stores in Japan where they sell antique tosogu and nihonto. 

 

The selling of these antiques is their primary business, livelihood, and living. 

 

All 3 responses that I received state that they think the motif is stars and constellations, or a constellation. 

 

Can all 3 antique tsuba dealers in Japan be incorrect? 

[Brian]

Why on earth would you think that dealers in Japan would be experts on motifs? They deal in tsuba, they likely know age and schools and metals and techniques very well. What makes you think they have studied the motifs and themes to any degree at all?
In fact I bet that many forum collectors could quite easily educate them on many of the legends and scenes depicted on their fittings. Guys like Dale and others. Don't assume antique dealers are experts in astronomy or legends. They know about as much as the average collector who has been studying for years, although they likely know more about schools, quality and value. 

[Matsunoki]

2 hours ago, sabiji said:

But as a representation of a specific constellation, this decoration would be too geometric according to Japanese understanding.

Thomas, how would you explain the ones imaged below. They are very geometric and fully accepted as constellations. The Myochin one even has an astrolabe according to the description.

Also it is documented that the Japanese were busy studying “modern astronomy” ie moving quickly on from the old Chinese texts throughout the Edo period and  with the appointment of official Shogunal astronomers studying European knowledge.

 

Just my irrelevant opinion but this topic has merit and is an interesting perspective…..as long as we remain objective.

 

[Dereks]

2 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Hello all! 

 

So, to continue. 

 

As you know, I have sent several emails to antique tsuba dealers in Japan. 

 

Up to now, I have received 3 responses (all shown in my previous posts). 

 

I may be getting a few more responses, we will see. 

 

Now, all the tsuba dealers in Japan that I sent my initial question to all have walk in stores in Japan where they sell antique tosogu and nihonto. 

 

The selling of these antiques is their primary business, livelihood, and living. 

 

All 3 responses that I received state that they think the motif is stars and constellations, or a constellation. 

 

Can all 3 antique tsuba dealers in Japan be incorrect? 

 

You keep repeating “antique tsuba dealers in Japan” like a broken record. Let me explain this again: your so-called antique tsuba dealers are mostly sword dealers who also happen to sell tsuba. They are dealers, not researchers, and most have little interest in seriously studying tsuba as a field.

 

Many people on this forum have spent years researching tsuba in far greater depth. If you took the time to listen to them, you might find they actually know more about the subject than the dealers you keep referring to.

 

Thomas wrote two excellent posts, which are probably beyond your comprehension. Instead of thanking him for his time, you go right back to “but antique tsuba dealers in Japan…” You keep looking for an answer that confirms what you already want to believe. 

 

That’s the main reason so many people end up frustrated when trying to have a discussion with you. It’s also why so many of your threads end up running to 20 pages before eventually being locked. 

 

Personally, I just don’t want to see this thread keep resurfacing, so I’d ask the other members NOT to respond to your replies anymore.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sabiji]

@Colin,

The most important phrase my “teacher,” Michael Hagenbusch, ever said—one that has really stuck with me—was, “There is nothing that does not exist.”

 

So I would be the last person to categorically reject anything, since everything is simply the current state of our knowledge. And I’m always open to other perspectives and interpretations.

 

But, just as in the Kantei, I always follow the path of greatest likelihood. And in my subjective opinion, that would be the Shippo pattern. But if someone sees a constellation in it, that’s fine by me.

 

Your examples almost certainly depict constellations.

 

As for depictions of constellations in Japanese art, I have very little experience. I would point out, however, that there are some very interesting depictions, especially when the artist has no idea about the subject matter—whether they’re cat-tigers or a meaningless attempt to reproduce Latin letters without any significance. Some constellations will be more astronomically accurate, while others are highly stylized.

 

I’m trying to depict what I mean by “very geometric” in this image.

 

 

 

[Brian]

No-one is saying constellations NEVER appear on tsuba. Of course they do. As does just about any subject you can think of.
But you are seeing them everywhere and not accepting that sometimes random patterns are just that...random patterns. There is no point showing that constellations have been seen before on tsuba, we know that. 
And to Colin...thanks, those are some lovely examples and are clear in their depictions. 

[Matsunoki]

Well, as we can’t ask the tsubashi it’s all a matter of opinion and an interesting discussion which leaves me on the fence but happy to fall either side. 
Sorry for adding another reply🙂

Now how do you get out of a black hole?

[ROKUJURO]

At least you are not alone there! You have an astronomer with you! 

[Matsunoki]

But just when you thought is safe to go back in the water…..

some big names giving opinions here….

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

Not Kufo no JU but KOFU no JU....

[Bugyotsuji]

Tempted to reply but 「武士に二言はない」...nothing to add to what I said on page one, except to repeat it in different words. 

 

The Japanese actively enjoy the subtlety of ambiguity in artistic interpretation. Two or even three aspects may meld and overlap in the same cameo.

 

An extreme example.

This is green. 「これは緑色です。」Kore wa *midori iro desu.

My Japanese teacher in Massachusetts gently pulled me up on this back when I was starting out on the language. The Japanese do not like -desu/masu endings to things, she said. It's too abrupt, too challenging, too confrontational, too point-blank, and does not allow for inclusion of the other person. Be gentle, and soften your utterances and gain friends. Avoid offense in your use of language.

Rephrase 'This is green.' by saying: "Can we not (Would you not) agree that this is green?'

Or 'This is green, right?' 「これは緑色でしょう。」Kore wa *midori iro desho.

 

(*Cha-iro, etc. Plenty of other words in Japanese for green!)

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Brian,

 

I was just reviewing one of your previous posts.

 

You stated in part of that post that "Why on earth would you think that dealers in Japan would be experts on motifs? They deal in tsuba, they likely know age and schools and metals and techniques very well. What makes you think they have studied the motifs and themes to any degree at all?"

 

Well since it is their primary business and livlihood, what makes you think that they haven't sudied the motifs and themes to any degree at all?

[Bazza]

The endless (?) wheel of Buddha...   Sorry. My one and only post on this topic...

 

BaZZa.

[Toryu2020]

A snippet from Strategy and the Art of Peace...

 

Strategy and the Art of Peace Excerpt.docx

[FlorianB]

I would suggest starting a new thread and looking at the depiction of stars in general, so as to break free from this "Is it or isn't it?" straitjacket.

 

As I mentioned earlier, you can see a constellation if you want to – or not.

 

To conclude, I would like to share a brief anecdote regarding the credibility of Japanese experts:

 

In the first edition of his „Handbook on Technical Terms for Sword Fittings“, Markus Sesko drew a connection between the famous namako-tsuba by Miyamoto Musashi and the hilts of the European "Katzbalger" swords used by "Landsknecht"-mercenaries. I expressed skepticism that a figure-eight-shaped crossguard of this Katzbalger could have served as the model for this famous Tsuba.

On one hand, the timelines do not align (there is a gap of approximately 200 years), and the bladed weapons Europeans carried in Japan were of a completely different type; on the other hand, it is certainly not inconceivable that the concept of arranging two ellipses side by side could have been developed independently in different locations.

 

Markus told me that this was merely the presentation of a theory by a Japanese researcher one he himself had doubts about and would omit in future editions.

 

In Japan, too, there are people with strange ideas.

[Brian]

6 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Well since it is their primary business and livlihood, what makes you think that they haven't sudied the motifs and themes to any degree at all?

The nice thing is I don't have to prove a negative. You have to prove that they do. That's how things work.
 

[Shugyosha]

3 hours ago, FlorianB said:

I would suggest starting a new thread and looking at the depiction of stars in general, so as to break free from this "Is it or isn't it?" straitjacket.

 

 

But if you did that it wouldn't be the Dan show would it?