Flea market sword ID help!

[E_B_DREW_77]

Hi everyone, new to the forum, first post here and am a complete novice to this topic! I recently went to a flea market where I found this sword for £700, I didn't buy it. It was a very fortuitous find as I had just so happened to be looking at them online a few days before and seeing one in the flesh definitley cemented my interest in them and I have been reading and trying to learn about them since. However, I am struggling to identify what this is! I wish I'd taken more pictures of the details, but I hope this picture is enough for an identification. I apologise in advance if I've gotten any of the terminology incorrect, this is all new to me! It appears to have a bluey-green fabric wrapped tsuka with a real ray skin samegawa. The tsuba is unornamented and appears to be steel or maybe iron. It has a brass habaki with unusual vertical lines cut into it. The saya has a leather cover, and the sword itself is secured into it via a leather tab with a pop fastener. This is probably the bit that is throwing me the most, I am struggling to find other examples with this method of closure. The blade itself also appears to have a strange crackle-like effect where the hamon would be. In my novice opinion I would say it was a Type 94, but any information would be greatly appreciated! Thanks! 

[Rawa]

Look for this book:

[vajo]

It's an older nihonto blade in gunto (wartime mountings) koshirae.

 

[ChrisW]

Probably Gunzoku (civilian military contractor) mounts, carried in the war by someone who'd be a desk jockey, construct military structures/airfields, oversee labor, etc. 

[Rawa]

Don't You find tsukamaki suspicious? Kabutogane like in last stage, crude nco 95 example, could this be random assembly? 

Sorry but when tsukamaki have uneven diamonds like that, having alternating braid - still DIY.

Menuki in accordance with regulations for gunto but You know It's easier to cast menuki then kabuto-gane.

Iron tsuba looks older but who knows.

 

Examples for gunzoku, [especially last one is similar case with ija menuki] here:

http://ohmura-study.net/728.html

 

I'm posting some tsuka from leather-covered saya sets. Military green tsuka-ito?

Please post more pictures, way too random.

 

Edited April 30 by Rawa

[Scogg]

Tsukamaki gets messed with so frequently, it should not be the by-all-end-all identifier. I once found an Kamikura period blade in military mounts, and the tsukamaki was terribly done and super loose.  A lot can happen in the 80+ years post-war. 

Like Vajo said above, likely an older blade converted for military use.

During the war, to supplement the need for sword production; many older swords were sourced from the public to be fitted for military use. They did this by adding a hanger and leather cover to the wooden scabbard, or making a new scabbard with leather cover + hanger. You often see this type of configuration referred to as "Civilian Guntō". If you google that, you'll find some more similar examples.

I think @Bruce Pennington has more understanding about Gunzuko and what they carried. 
There are many possibilities, it's hard to know for certain.
-Sam

[Rawa]

@Scoggwhat about this kabuto-gane?

[Bruce Pennington]

19 hours ago, E_B_DREW_77 said:

The saya has a leather cover, and the sword itself is secured into it via a leather tab with a pop fastener. This is probably the bit that is throwing me the most, I am struggling to find other examples with this method of closure.

The fastener method is quite common.

That kabutogane is a bit unusual, but knowing what we do about the late war effect on supplies, it doesn't bother me.  

I agree, it's likely late war.  As to who carried it, it's not possible to know.  We've seen it carried by active officers, NCOs, and Gunzoku.

[Scogg]

@Rawa, the kobuto-gane is kind of ugly? 

You often find these "Civilian Guntō" with weird kobutogane situations. The older swords that were converted often did not have a way to secure a tassel; so a way to add a tassel was fabricated by either adding a crude kobutogane, or by other creative means. I've even seen some with the tsuka drilled through and a sarute added to the "drill hole". 

Best,

-Sam

[Rawa]

53 minutes ago, Scogg said:

@Rawa, the kobuto-gane is kind of ugly? 

You often find these "Civilian Guntō" with weird kobutogane situations. The older swords that were converted often did not have a way to secure a tassel; so a way to add a tassel was fabricated by either adding a crude kobutogane, or by other creative means. I've even seen some with the tsuka drilled through and a sarute added to the "drill hole". 

Best,

-Sam

Good for Me. Maybe We were to lenient lately towards these mixed examples :D

[Bruce Pennington]

1 minute ago, Rawa said:

mixed examples

Marcin,

The civil swords refitted for the war came in all sorts of combinations.  I've seen old blades in: full military koshirae; military koshirae, but civil tsuka; military koshirae, with civil menugi; full civil fittings, leather cover; civil fittings, military tsuka; field saya, civil tsuka, army menugi; etc.

[E_B_DREW_77]

Thanks for the info everyone!!  I wish I could have taken more pictures but yeah, I was at a flea market and didn't think to take any more.

 

21 hours ago, Rawa said:

Look for this book:

 

I'll keep an eye out for a copy of this, thanks. I did manage to find an online version but I'd much rather a physical copy. Link to online version in case its useful to anyone https://archive.org/details/connoisseursbook0000naga 

[Rawa]

38 minutes ago, E_B_DREW_77 said:

Thanks for the info everyone!!  I wish I could have taken more pictures but yeah, I was at a flea market and didn't think to take any more.

 

 

I'll keep an eye out for a copy of this, thanks. I did manage to find an online version but I'd much rather a physical copy. Link to online version in case its useful to anyone https://archive.org/details/connoisseursbook0000naga 

We know about this site. Still paperback is available forever. Look for never edition like 2017 - 20 years equals 28 extra pages difference.

for example: /amazon still have it cheaper with free shipping/

https://www.ebay.com/itm/397132961639?_skw=The+Connoisseur's+Book+of+Japanese+Swords&epid=232845081&itmmeta=01KQFQ3QX6XVCBAPMM0MCDEHJ0&hash=item5c76f81767:g:LFwAAeSwIdZpILQj&itmprp=enc%3AAQALAAABEGfYFPkwiKCW4ZNSs2u11xB9eygsBJXfQT4UUXYhbABqwm6lTfxuG87P%2F9zW4IFm0I%2FVDyisKvK4nlmgDY8b4fIMzcHxsBAMXinQ3ZcxtLjUCFzkso28%2Fi2hdmAXflmdUVeqNRfXnvKz04hi19gqL45H7MXwIbeU1w8jvrhNWPmZAhqoLs7YwOyMWYULQbEORxEDCdIxHanL8YpZPB4AnB05LzqLNcdpFrd1T0NNsUxiW7YWgy2quu51vQ8Pbri2RGwayIy1Doubjj7b1xtO9OEK7mCBpwze%2FKBnmwVVKRcmin6hj5DbdL93%2FzDYChQvXtHwbK%2ByI%2Ffdw5OO5Hq9eQ8FRh62FeH%2FxjzlSJpCjWCt|tkp%3ABk9SR97-jve7Zw

Edited April 30 by Rawa

[Brian]

Just bear in mind those download links are to illegal downloads that break copyright.
Tempted to remove it...not because I'm a stickler for law, but because I'm wary of the forum liability in sharing stuff like that. Hmmm....I need to think about this for a bit 

[robinalexander]

Copyright protects the interests of the very people who bring you such valuable information.

 

Let your conscience your guide.

[E_B_DREW_77]

4 hours ago, Brian said:

Just bear in mind those download links are to illegal downloads that break copyright.
Tempted to remove it...not because I'm a stickler for law, but because I'm wary of the forum liability in sharing stuff like that. Hmmm....I need to think about this for a bit 

I'm happy to remove it if its an issue. 

[Brian]

1 hour ago, E_B_DREW_77 said:

I'm happy to remove it if its an issue. 

After checking it out, there doesn't appear to be a full download, and you can only preview a very limited number of pages. So I expect that one is ok and legit.
I know there are full pdf's of the book floating around, I'd be more concerned about sharing those. This one should be fine 

[Kiipu]

That is one of the books that you can "borrow" but not download.  Might be different for some depending upon what country you are logging in from.  Below are the rules for it.  FYI, archive.org (and Google Books) is a safe web site and have used it for many moons.

Borrowing From The Lending Library