Question

[kaze ryu]

I really like that tsuba but It has strange marks and golden color too. 

Amy thoughts?

[Alex A]

The style, the way the trees are done, reminds me of Bushu

 

Though folks will know more than me.,

[Shugyosha]

On the right Edo Kanda ju…I think, the signature on the left is too vague for me. 

[Nobody]

Maybe,

江戸神田住 - Edo Kanda ju

政方 - Masakata

[Spartancrest]

Nunome-zogan, [gold overlay] very nice Ume/ategane with "cat scratch" decoration - there are several styles and they all have Japanese names [I hope others can clarify the type]. Very nice genuine piece. 

[kaze ryu]

Ooo, thank you so much for the information. I'll record all the documentation in the file for my collection. Very grateful. My main question was why it has that golden color near the nagako ana. It seems out of place. It definitely looks original, and I love it. Does anyone know why this is there?

[kaze ryu]

Ooo, thank you so much for the information. I'll record all the documentation in the file for my collection. Very grateful. My main question was why it has that golden color near the nagako ana. It seems out of place. It definitely looks original, and I love it. Does anyone know why this is there?

 

I'm very grateful, as my knowledge is still very limited. I don't know Japanese, and I sometimes have trouble distinguishing between schools. I greatly appreciate your comments.

[Alex A]

That does seem a bit unusual. Wonder if it was someone testing something with the gold overlay before they went ahead and completed the job. just a guess.

 

Ps, about Bushu. That's not a fact, that's just my observation and will tell you why. The style with the outer rim and two ana seem to fit. The way the trees form around the ana and the way there are real thick like trunks seems to fit. The use of gold overlay is consistent with the school. I like tsuba with trees so they catch me eye. Thats about my knowledge. 

 

I find Bushu tsuba to be very in touch with nature, in general.

 

Though i cant say if im correct or not as im not really a serious tsuba authority lol

 

Heres my two Bushu, notice the same style with rim and ana with the nature, one has a touch of gold. (weird picture, not that shiny in hand)

 

[Alex A]

Ps, just googling Masakata and Bushu and stuff comes up. I dont know whether maybe your tsuba is an offshoot or whatever.

 

Just one example, with Masakata

 

Kind of similar style

 

Want to make it clear im just speculating.

 

Note Kanda and Bushu, both linked to Tokyo, according to A I 

https://www.aoijapan.net/tsuba-bushu-jyu-masakata/

[MauroP]

The signature seems consistent..

 

[Alex A]

Dont know it its just me that thinks this but when i look at the tsuba we are talking about, does anyone else feel like there is a very tiny amount of dry kind of surface rust that needs a bit of attention?

 

Nothing serious at all, just looks like its crying out for a TINY bit of oil on a cotton bud, obviously avoiding the gold.

 

Or whatever folks do.

 

[Spartancrest]

I did think the guard was decorated with two or more tones of gold, it gives it a more "aged" look. Yes a little light clean wouldn't hurt but it is in pretty good condition. A lot [most] of guards look much better in hand, lighting conditions often either fail to reveal true condition or overplay it.  JMHO

[zanilu]

You are right Alex.

 

Probably it is better for the momoment just to use a little bit of choji oil or sewing machine oil, let it soak and then try with a cotton bud to remove the loose rust. The use of oil will at least improve its appearance. 

 

Regards

Luca

[kaze ryu]

Great. Thanks for the heads-up. I'll try to fix it and upload some photos. Thanks!

[kaze ryu]

Many cotton swabs and red rags later...done. I prefer to work on iron without oil to lift the red rust without darkening it. I work with bone, ivory, and rags soaked in distilled water. When the red rust doesn't show up as much anymore, I apply a thin layer of oil and rub with a cotton cloth. Thanks so much for the warning. I should definitely do this with some others.

[kaze ryu]

This is the most worrisome. It has a shiny layer and looks dark, but there seems to be rust underneath it. It seems stable, and I don't know if I should do something about it. Maybe it's corroding without being visible? I think this photo is quite natural may be more dark in the reality

 

 

 

In the sun...it looks terrible in the photo; in reality, not so much.

Thoughts??

 

[Shugyosha]

If you have the patience, I don’t think repeating what you did with the last one would hurt. @ROKUJURO knows a good deal and may be able to advise, also you could try a search on “tsuba fussing” for advice on cleaning up tsuba. 

[ROKUJURO]

Mike,

to me, this TSUBA looks cast with the SEKI-GANE being probably the same material as the TSUBA itself. If I am correct, you may brush the TSUBA clean with a steel-wire brush and oil it, before you sell it on.

[Dan tsuba]

 

I have to agree with Jean (Rokujuro) on this one.

That frog tsuba looks to be cast (Edo period?).   I am not sure about the other tsuba in the other pictures.

[Curran]

Afraid I agree with @ROKUJURO and @Dan tsuba on this one.

I'm cautious to call a tsuba as cast, but that one is not at the same level as the one you shared to start this thread.

 

I remember owning a partially burned tsuba in my second year collecting tsuba.

I wasted a lot of time trying to improve that partially burned tsuba. Some things are just 'dead' and you should let them go as soon as possible.

 

 

[Spartancrest]

Froggy is cast - sorry there are hundreds, but don't despair some of the best museums in the world have the exact cast copies! Ashmolean Museum [Oxford], Victoria and Albert Museum and the Riijsmuseum [Amsterdam] 

 

https://nihontofrance.com/tosogu/tsuba-crapaud/  The French have the name half correct "Crapaud" = toad  the first half of the word is more accurate = crap

https://www.thierrydemaigret.com/lot/22009/4944606-tsuba-en-fer-representant-une-grenouille-shoami-xviiieme?  600 euro !

 

       

 

 

 

  The Rijksmuseum has an authentic frog tsuba and one of the cast fakes.    AK-MAK-1077   &    AK-MAK-1063  

It is all in the Sekigane - the fakes are all identical and have simulated sekigane, the tagane-ato are also cast in.

 

From https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/49789-wild-things/page/3/#comment-527781  December 2, 2024

 

 

[kaze ryu]

Thanks. One of my first tsubas. Totally inexperienced. At the time, I liked it better. It seems darkened to simulate another material may be and also have a mei. I imagine others might have it too. So, I won't waste too much time and leave it as is. Thank you very much for the help. I hope to do the same for others when I have more knowledge.

[Spartancrest]

Very unusual to see one of these frogs with a signature. Though there are many signed cast pieces, I think the signatures were designed to give a bit more "authenticity" and entice buyers. I wonder if some of the other members can get a translation?  

[Spartancrest]

    Well I found another signed one [also on the ura] - Found in the Museum of Vancouver  DB 403

 

They state: The iron plate of this tsuba was cast not forged.  No signature legible.     It looks worn away or else was very superficial to start with. 

Well that makes two that are signed!  I think unless someone can read the signature we are stuck with either the signatures are gimei or perhaps by the caster?

 

The Museum also states:   DATE OF USE  17th or 18th century  So they believe it was made in the Edo period.   [Let the arguments commence! ]

[ROKUJURO]

Oh no, not again!

[MauroP]

Thanks God the Museum of Vancouver also states that the material is copper and/or silver alloy (?).  So no iron casting involved (or clearly the museum curators don't know anything).

 

https://www.openmovportal.ca/argus/final/Portal/Main.aspx?component=AAFG&record=a7450643-c397-4d2e-a9a6-0cea5b180791

Edited Monday at 12:03 PM by MauroP

[Spartancrest]

1 hour ago, MauroP said:

clearly the museum curators don't know anything

I have another thread dealing with just this issue   https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/49404-museums-are-not-always-a-good-spot-to-learn/

 

I have to say though, that the Museum of Vancouver does its best to rectify any mistakes -  if they are made aware of them. People should not be afraid to notify any museum if they notice anything wrong. 

[The Vancouver has a lot of typos and bad spelling in its descriptions, it also sites some "Expert opinions" that are not "EXPERT" at all.]   

For instance DB 504 has the RESEARCHER'S / EXPERT'S REMARKS :

In Kaga this inlay pattern was commonly used on the bottom of abumi (stirrups) as a brass inlay design. It is called shippo pattern, the same as the cloisonne pattern from China.

 Unfortunately the pattern is actually called "Asanoha"  which means Hemp pattern - https://project-Japan.jp/asanoha/ - Shippo is very different. So much for experts! 

 

 

The Frog/Toad tsuba DB 403 states twice that it is Iron, The iron plate of this tsuba was cast not forged.     PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION  Iron; roughly oval; frog carved in the round in relief; no signature legible. 

where they get the Copper and Silver alloy idea from is probably lazy copying or "cut and paste" at some time, the "iron" has no patina and looks silvery - They may have thought it was a silver alloy due to its appearance? Clearly they didn't read the other entries!