I would like to hear your opinion on gunto with showa stamp

[Rawa]

Im able to buy this in great 98 type koshirae. Im more intetested in koshirae but as usual I have to buy it with sword. Please tell me what you think about this hamon. No star so it should be showato in some way but it also have torokusho.

[Bruce Pennington]

Beautiful hamon!  Oil quenched.  My opinion, but I find the early showa-stamped blades to have been really well made with great hamon.  

[SteveM]

Some WW2-era blades have torokusho. Some even have NBTHK papers. I think there has been a gradual reappraisal of the term "art sword", and relaxing of standards that were formulated in the immediate post-war era. This sword is an example of that. 

[Rawa]

Sure why not. But in this case we have showato? Amongst all showa made gendaito showato still is at the bottom. I remember reading here in some topic started in year 2k11 about meaning of showa stamp. Showa with star will always be considered made in traditional way. 

[SteveM]

I don't quite understand your post. What I'm saying is that shōwatō (aka guntō), especially ones that have signatures by known smiths, have been successfully licensed and some have been papered. It would have been unthinkable before the 2000s, but Japan seems to be more open to seeing the historical value of these swords, if not their artistic value. We see these swords being licensed with increasing frequency.

 

I'm using the word "guntō", but its virtually interchangeable with the word "shōwatō". Items that were mass-produced for the war effort. Some items were produced with a bit more effort, skill, and artistry, but all of these were deemed weapons, and were not eligible for licenses; hence, illegal to own. 

 

 

[Mister Gunto]

Even if it this one doesn't meet the standards to be called a "Nihonto", it's still a beautiful and excellently made authentic Japanese sword, by a well-regarded smith no less. 

 

I think as time passes, the Japanese are starting to get past the old "Showato" label, and are becoming able to look at the wartime-period blades and realize that some of them are quite good. 

 

Also, any pics of the Type 98 koshirae? 

[lonely panet]

Only open to the commercial value thats all. Imho there a novelty in Japan because they dont see them as often as the west. There regarded inferior the evan bundle swords

[Rawa]

I'm sorry for making rumpus. It wasn't mine intention at all. Old info maybe is outdated.

https://www.japaneseswordindex.com/showato.htm

I was asking about quality of it. If it would ever be repolished would hamon [sambon-sugi?] be destroyed?

Also seller stayes that blade is handmade...

@Mister Guntokoshirae photos, saya and release button are not top notch.

 

[Rawa]

And photo of different one which is extraordinary in my eyes. Saya is mint.

What can I do? Blade in this one turn out to be welded. Seller was buying like crazy couple of years ago. But this koshirae was worthy. 

[Rawa]

How do you even understand simple term "handmade"?

-as traditional hammering? Not using autohammer?

Not interchangeably as "traditional"?

How swords named shinsaku [current era swords] are made now?

And most important thing to ask - If any of members have photos of war era sword factories please give me some. How looked this modernized process?

[Navy]

Judging by the dark spots on top of hamon, to me this one is oil quenched, thus falling in the non- traditional made category, lacking the water quenching requirement.

 

[lonely panet]

Its got a sho stamp.... of course its a oilie

[martyd]

Wish my sho stamped kanemichi hamon stood out as well as that 😭

Mines a completely different hamon pattern, not as artistic as your example. Looks good.

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

6 hours ago, Rawa said:

How do you even understand simple term "handmade"?

-as traditional hammering? Not using autohammer?

Not interchangeably as "traditional"?

How are swords named shinsaku [current era swords] made now?.....

In this context, handmade traditional sword-blades are understood to be made from TAMAHAGANE. The steel of these would have been purified by forging, folding, and fire-welding a number of times before being forged out to its final shape. Traditional quenching in water and polishing without machines would follow. This applies to GENDAITO and SHINSAKUTO.

There is no rule about the use of a power-hammer: You still have to hold the blade and guide the action, so this is not considered as "machine-made". It all depends on the situation in your forge: If you have no apprentices, the power-hammer will help with the raw work.

There were several methods to produce wartime blades. SHOWATO are made from industrial steel without folding and fire-welding. As far as I understand, there are rare exceptions to this. Modern alloyed steel cannot be water-quenched without a high risk of cracking. Oil-quenching generates a good hardness with little risk of KIZU, but does not produce HATARAKI in the steel as we see them on traditionally made blades. There will be no NIE formations, and the HAMON is rather plain and without much variation. If you compare a traditional blade and a SHOWATO side by side, this will be obvious. 

What you like and find interesting is a matter of personal preference and taste.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Typical Type 98 with non-traditional Showa-to by one of the well regarded Gendai Tosho of the period, nothing really exciting apart from the condition. 

[Rawa]

Thx for info. Definietly worthy of preservation.

[Brian]

Yes, we have to get used to the fact that when we say "arsenal" or "machine made" or Showato etc etc, we mean not 100% traditionally made, and likely oil quenched. They were still made by a smith, could be forged and hammered (power or otherwise) but not considered Gendaito. Handmade? You could say that. But on a mass production and fast basis, and oil quenched.
When we say Gendaito, it used tamahagane, and was water quenched. Excluding those odd swords that fall somewhere in the middle.
But this one is oil quenched, and the stamp is a clear indicator that it is not a Gendaito, whether it would paper or not.

[Mister Gunto]

Considering the age, (going on 80 years now) and that it was carried by a Japanese Officer during the war, the koshirae looks very good! The darkened same isn't exactly rare, but still uncommon. 

 

I have no experience with Shinsa, so I'm not sure if this smith's name would be enough to get it papers, or if they would reject it due to the Showa stamp/ Non-Gendaito.

 

Regardless, you have a very nice Wartime Type 98 sword! There are so many out there in far lesser condition. 

 

[ROKUJURO]

As far as I know, SHINSA is for traditionally made NIHONTO. These are unique, handmade items.

[Rawa]

NBTHK was created for preservation swords with artistic values but we will live and see. 

[Bryce]

G'day Marcin,

Is there any chance you can post a good photo of the nakago showing the complete mei and nakago jiri? I ask this because from your photo it looks like the nakago jiri is a very unusual shape for Kojima Kanemichi. I wonder if it may actually be by Kanesane?

Cheers,

Bryce

 

[Bryce]

This is what I am referring to.

Cheers,

Bryce

 

[Rawa]

I don't have better one. Torokusho should be valid.

[Rawa]

I found blade with similar hamon by same smith

https://kako.nipponto.co.jp/swords/KT122460.htm

 

[Rawa]

Ok I got more photos.

[Bryce]

G'day Marcin,

Thanks for that. Definitely Kanemichi, but there is something odd about the nakago jiri. Maybe it has been shortened slightly or maybe it was just made that way. Unfortunately none of your new photos show the nakago jiri.

Cheers,

Bryce

[Rawa]

Oh didnt noticed it was cut.

[Bryce]

Yeah, must have been shortened slightly to fit that koshirae.

Cheers,

Bryce

[ROKUJURO]

Marcin,

TOROKUSHO does not look at validation or authenticity. It is just a registration paper issued by the government.

The NAKAGO looks perfectly UBU to me.

[Bryce]

G'day Jean,

You could easily mistake it for ubu, but the nakago jiri of Kanemichi blades are never that shape. They are always some version of this below.

 

Cheers,

Bryce