Tsuba casting molds ?

[Curran]

...  

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Curran!

What is that cryptic beer mug in your last post supposed to represent?

This Buds for you!

Thanks for your support, and I will also drink to that!

Ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!

Onward to more Edo period cast iron tsuba research!

 

[Dan tsuba]

Well, I found an interesting comment to the Marcus Sesko article (which is a great article) about the Nara find of casting molds.  That discovery initially started me on my journey on this thread about cast iron tsuba. 

 

I was referred to the Sesko article by a post on this thread dated 1/27/2022. 

 

I haven’t revisited that article until about an hour ago! 

 

What I found was a comment (written by another individual) added at the bottom of that article on 10/12/2022. 

 

The article by Sesko can be found here- 

https://markussesko.com/2016/01/20/cast-sword-fittings/ 

 

Here is what part of that comment stated- 

“I have long maintained that many sukashi tsuba were originally cast and then converted to malleable iron by carburisation – in effect by heating in firescale. We know this process is used for kettles, allowing the surface to be chiselled and otherwise worked. The commonly advocated method of their production, being cut out of a plate by sawing, would demand the existance of sawblades capable of intricate cuts, similar to modern piercing saw blades. By casting and then carburising, the basic form of the tsuba would then only need refning using files or even more likely scrapers.” 

 

Just some more interesting stuff! 

 

[Brian]

@Markus Accurate of your opinion today? :-)

[Markus]

@Brian Are you referring to my article or to Ian's comment to it Dan quoted here?

 

[Brian]

Sorry, I should have clarified. I was asking if you agree with Ian's comment on your article :-)
Btw, is Ian still ok? Haven't heard from him in ages. I hope all is well.

[ROKUJURO]

The cited part of the article contains some mistakes:

To make cast iron malleable or workable to an extent, it has to be decarburized, not carburized. 

The idea that tools like modern saw blades could have been available to the TSUBAKO is not realistic. We have to research what actually was available and cannot go from what we have now.

Chasing with fine TAGANE and filing was the main work in earlier times, but, following to Ford Hallam, in later EDO JIDAI, they had fine jewellers saws. These did not have a cutting saw blade as we know them today, but a fine wire. With a bit of oil on it and fine diamond powder, very narrow cuts could be executed with this saw. 

Work time was not an issue in those days.... 

[Markus]

2 hours ago, Brian said:

Sorry, I should have clarified. I was asking if you agree with Ian's comment on your article :-)
Btw, is Ian still ok? Haven't heard from him in ages. I hope all is well.

 

To be honest, I don't know 😇 I have moved away much from the metallurgical/making view in the Japanese arms and armor world over the last years. Would love to dig back in, but I am lacking the metallurgical education on the one hand, and on the other hand, also wouldn't have the time to do so if I wanted, so I want to leave that aspect to others.

 

Edit: A friend of mine visited Ian last year and said he was doing alright.

 

[Markus]

2 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

The cited part of the article contains some mistakes:
 

 

The cited part is from a comment, not from my article.

[ROKUJURO]

Ah, thank you! I didn't get that!

[Dan tsuba]

Well, my friends there you have it! 

 

If a tsuba was made from cast iron in the Edo period (and cast iron has a high carbon content) and then decarburized (to lower its carbon content) and in doing so make it more malleable for addition of motif or design, could that ever be determined or detected?

 

Maybe even with non-invasive metallurgical testing, could that testing discern if it was first cast and then decarburized? 

 

Where is a university degreed metallurgical expert when you need one? 

 

Like I said before, maybe this thread needs to be locked? 

 

In my opinion nobody really knows anything, and everybody is just guessing. 

 

Only a few courageous members are willing to take a stand that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period. 

 

Just my opinion. 

 

[MauroP]

Have space aliens ever landed on Earth? Who knows... 
Possible? Yes, of course! Likely? No, of course!
Have iron tsuba been casted in Edo period? The same as above... that's all IMHO.

[Brian]

Mauro,
Clearly the Japanese were very embarrassed about doing it. Because they managed to hide all the old writings on it, pattern books, instruction manuals, pretty much all the documentation that they did routinely for all the other methods. I mean look at all those Edo school pattern books and patina formula writings etc that they left behind for all the other methods. So they must have taken great care to make sure that any family history and instructions were rolled up and smoked to make sure they didn't make it to modern museums and book stores. 

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Brian, 

 

Kind of off topic here. 

 

So, in your last post you seem to be referring to instruction manuals written in the Edo period that tells and describes how to make an iron tsuba. 

 

In part of your post (which was referering to cast iron tsuba) you stated- 

“Clearly the Japanese were very embarrassed about doing it. Because they managed to hide all the old writings on it, pattern books, instruction manuals, pretty much all the documentation that they did routinely for all the other methods.”   

 

I would very much be interested to see those Edo period instruction manuals that describe and state, step by step, how to make a hand forged iron tsuba (hopefully they have been translated into English!) since as you stated-

"pretty much all the documentation that they did routinely for all the other methods.”   

 

Could you please post some links or references so I can check them out? 

 

Thanks! 

[OceanoNox]

万金産業袋 (also written 萬金産業袋), published in 1732, describes how to make iron tsuba. The method is to recycle old farming tools, no casting.

 

https://kokusho.nijl.ac.jp/biblio/100258979/31?ln=ja

It is all in Japanese and written in kuzushi-ji, but you can scan it with the miwo (みを) free application, which will give you the writing in typed text, which you can paste in a translation software.

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Arnaud (OceanoNox). 

Great research on finding that Edo period publication! 

You stated that it has to do with making tsuba out of recycling old farming tools, and I did notice some pictures of tsuba in that publication. 

So, I figure you must have translated some of it. 

I appreciate you advising me how to translate the rest of it. 

However, I don’t have the technological tools or know how to translate it. 

Maybe someone on the forum can translate those pages with tsuba shown on it and post it? 

That would be very helpful! 

 

 

As an addendum to this post. 

I inquired on the internet “how many millions of Japanese edo period texts are awaiting to be translated into English”. 

This is what the internet stated- 

 

“There is no exact number, but there are certainly many thousands, and likely millions, of Edo period texts awaiting translation into English, though a comprehensive figure is not available. A vast amount of information from this fertile period of literature and art exists in handwritten and printed formats, and a significant portion of it has not yet been translated or studied in depth by English-speaking scholars.  

Factors contributing to the large volume of untranslated texts:  

• Vast quantity of materials: The Edo period (1603–1867) was a time of significant population growth and increased literacy, leading to the creation of an enormous number of books, manuscripts, and other written materials.   

• Variety of genres: Texts span numerous genres, including literature, history, philosophy, art, poetry, and practical guides, each requiring specialized translation skills.   

• Complex language and script: Edo-era Japanese was written in a complex script using Chinese characters (kanji) and Japanese phonetic scripts (kana) that differs from modern Japanese, making translation a specialized and labor-intensive task.   

• Limited resources for translation: The number of translators with the specific linguistic and historical knowledge needed to translate these texts is limited.   

• Incomplete cataloging: While there are collections, many texts are not fully cataloged, making it difficult to even identify the full scope of what exists and needs translating.” 

 

Also, found this on the internet “Keeping Knowledge Secret in Edo Period Japan (1600-1868) found at this website- 

 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/48647105?seq=1 

 

So. maybe there was stuff written about the making of cast iron tsuba in the Edo period that has not come to light yet or was kept secret?

 

Who knows?

 

Just some more interesting stuff. 

 

 

[OceanoNox]

The relevant part is this:

 

扨又鍔の鉄の性これまた大ふん品ある事

本ン鍛ひ鍔といふは古鋤から古鍬がらを水に漬数日を経てのち土砂を洗をとし是を吹革に入レ尤至極きたふ事也

それを鍛ひ〱て鍔につくる

形彫は好に随ふこれきたひ鍔の上品

 

Further, the quality of the iron is very good / high quality.

Forged tsuba are made from old hoes and spades, soaked several days in water, then cleaned of the dirt and sandm and put in a forge (the word fuigo, bellows, is used), and forged.

This is forged into a tsuba.

It is carved into the desired shape and it is a high quality tsuba.

 

※The translation is partially mine, helped with google. It is possible that miwo missed or misread some letters, but the text is transcribed in this paper, page 92: https://www.kurokawa-institute.or.jp/files/libs/640/201904281025162413.pdf

※※I am fairly sure someone (maybe me) has posted both links before, possibly even here.

 

 

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello again! 

I came across an interesting thread on this forum from 2023. 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/45170-mass-produced-tsuba/ 

It talks about mass produced tsuba, a few posts talk about cast iron tsuba and if those tsuba could have been made in the Edo period. 

Anyway, just some more interesting stuff! 

 

[Jake6500]

On 9/24/2025 at 8:31 PM, Brian said:

Mauro,
Clearly the Japanese were very embarrassed about doing it. Because they managed to hide all the old writings on it, pattern books, instruction manuals, pretty much all the documentation that they did routinely for all the other methods. I mean look at all those Edo school pattern books and patina formula writings etc that they left behind for all the other methods. So they must have taken great care to make sure that any family history and instructions were rolled up and smoked to make sure they didn't make it to modern museums and book stores. 

This reminds me of when archaeological conspiracy theorists use the line "The absence of evidence is not evidence absence..." to justify whacky nonsense like aliens building the pyramids.

 

Maybe so, but it also isn't evidence of presence...

 

I can't disprove the idea that Genghis Khan rode a unicorn or that he was buried in Iceland; but that doesn't mean I'm going to start a unicorn cult in Reykjavik.....

 

[ROKUJURO]

Don't feed the trolls!

[Dan tsuba]

Off topic here, but this (once again) is getting personal because of some members frustrations with this thread. 

 

Rokujuro (Jean), 

Just because you are frustrated with what I am presenting on this thread (and for the most part you site no resources or references or show pictures to back up your stated opinions and statements in your posts) there is no reason to resort to name calling. 

I can only guess that you were referring to me when in your last post you stated, “Don’t feed the trolls!” 

 

[Exclus1ve]

Sometimes you just need to focus on something more important and interesting(let everyone figure it out for themselves) and not pay attention to everything, any opinion has a place to be, the question is, do you need it?…

 

P.S. Curiously, this applies to absolutely all participants in this (and not only) topic)

Edited December 5, 2025 by Exclus1ve

[Dan tsuba]

Just putting this out there for those that may be interested by it!

 

Referring to this thread-

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/54990-juzu-namban-tsuba/

 

A post by Robert S. in that thread stated-

 

“And, with a reasonable degree of certainty, cast.  Getting that exact and uniform degree of "blurriness" in the details would be a heck of a task to carve.  Which doesn't mean it isn't a genuine namban tsuba - I've seen others which were cast.”

 

Picture of the Namban type tsuba referred to above is shown below-

 

 

[Kurikata]

Unfortunatly, this tsuba I do own is not cast! [I invite you in France to verify]

[Robert S]

11 hours ago, Kurikata said:

Unfortunatly, this tsuba I do own is not cast! [I invite you in France to verify]

It's certainly possible that I am wrong.  I do have experience with casting, and this and some other namban tsuba bear the hallmarks, but it is possible that it has to do with the nature of the steel used.  You're quite right that you have it in hand.  If I'm ever in France... :-)

[Kurikata]

Robert, the iron used for this namban tsuba is really of poor quality as the majority of these end of 19th century tsuba. Difficult in fact from a single picture to determine the building process of it. Anyway I liked the mixt of dragon and juzu in quite a large pièce [8cm]. 

[Toryu2020]

Cast menuki?

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/menuki-mumei-kettle/

[ROKUJURO]

Possibly or even likely.

[MauroP]

Special feature: On the Shakudo plate, a kettle for the tea...

[Toryu2020]

Indeed it is described as shakudo but look closely at the surface; casting bubbles or evidence of gilding?