Tsuba casting molds ?

[zanilu]

I have no more time to waste arguing with you Dan.

 

I will not play your game.

 

Luca

[Alex A]

Edit

 

Dont want to say what i want to say in case it upsets folks.

 

Horses for courses.

 

PS, for any newbies with their heads spinning by all this, go back to what Ford Hallam stated and stick with that. 

 

 

 

 

[Curran]

On 6/20/2025 at 8:10 AM, zanilu said:

 "Arrampicarsi sugli specchi" that is a figurative way of saying "arguing on the impossibile", in english should be something like "clutch at straws". 

 

"Arrampicar(si)"  . New verb to me.

I'd say "arguing with yourself in the mirror". [or beating yourself up in the mirror?]

 

I've long been tired of this thread.      I'll consult with Brian about locking it.

For now, posts stay up. I don't want to be censuring any more than I must.

--- Everyone go back to their corners and sit down  ---. Don't make me power up the cattle-prod.

 

[ROKUJURO]

Curran,

what a wonderful threat! 

[Dan tsuba]

No need to power up the cattle prod!

 

I started this thread, let me end it.

 

Then Brian can lock this thread.

 

So, what the nonbelievers of cast iron tsuba being made in the Edo period are saying is that there were no cast iron tsuba made until after the end of the Edo period (1868).  They are saying that no cast iron tsuba were made during the Edo period.

 

That means that all the craftsmen of tsuba got together and decided to wait until the end of the Edo period before making a cast iron tsuba and then they all said “yeah, let’s go ahead and make cast iron tsuba now”!

 

Come on.  Do you really believe that?

 

The more plausible explanation being that at least 40 years (just guessing here - and my guess is derived from other posts and references stated in this thread) before the end of the Edo period cast iron tsuba were being made.

 

Those cast iron tsuba could have been mounted on swords (as many old cast iron tsuba shown in this thread have sekigane in the nakago-ana or are shown mounted on swords) or they could have been made for the tourist trade.

 

The point being that cast iron tsuba were being made in the Edo period.

 

Now the administrator can lock this thread.

 

[Curran]

Locking threads should probably be reserved for when things totally go off the rails or get too troglodyte and troll.

 

This thread has gotten very long at 21pgs.

My personal opinion is that it has become a time sink hole.

I'd appeal to the fellow members here to move onto something else.

 

 

[DirkO]

Also letting either side have the last word as if it were a definitive conclusion might be a bad idea - ideally one of the admins would do a post summarizing the different views and then lock it. 

[Brian]

Then we get accused of censoring any potential future "findings" or evidence. Nah, leave it to slowly bury itself.

[Curran]

1 hour ago, Brian said:

Then we get accused of censoring any potential future "findings" or evidence. Nah, leave it to slowly bury itself.

 

I agree with Brian.

Any summarizing might get accused of auditing / censoring.

 

 

[zanilu]

Non ragioniam di lor, ma guarda e passa...

[Spartancrest]

I think this is the first [?] thread that has garnered so much response just from the idea of shutting it down! 

 

Non posso lasciar passare questo senza commentare . . .

PS. Why do people choose to write in languages that are one click away from Google translate? [You need to be more creative - how about Morse code?] 

 

.. / -.-. .- -. - / .-.. . - / - .... .. ... / .--. .- ... ... / .-- .. - .... --- ..- - / -.-. --- -- -- . -. -

[ROKUJURO]

Dale,

I am not sure that so much traffic was caused by the wish to shut the thread down. In my opinion, it is more the concern of many responsible members that so much nonsense should not remain uncontradicted in an otherwise highly competent and specialized forum.

But I have come to the insight that the whole discussion has nothing to do with Japanese culture or TSUBA. It is a psycho-pathological thing about being perceived and accepted (even in the form of "friction"), but this forum cannot offer therapy. 

[Dan tsuba]

Well, to finally address some of Jean’s last post.

 

He stated-

 

“But I have come to the insight that the whole discussion has nothing to do with Japanese culture or TSUBA.”

 

I, on the other hand, think this whole thread and discussion has everything to do with TSUBA.

 

I will refrain from answering the other parts of his post since the last time I did that my post was eliminated and I received a warning and a 7-day suspension on the forum.

 

Onward!

[Dan tsuba]

Well, here is something of interest.

From a recent thread on the forum-

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/53444-questi?on/

The frog tsuba in that thread appears to be cast iron (picture attached).

Edo period?  Not Edo period?

Who knows!

Just some more interesting stuff to consider.

Onward my friends!

 

[Dan tsuba]

I saw this information about the frog motif tsuba (shown above) on this other thread-

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/53444-question/#comment-561175

 

(some of the information from a post by Spartancrest)-

 

“Found in the Museum of Vancouver DB 403.

They state: The iron plate of this tsuba was cast not forged.  No signature is legible.

The Museum also states:   DATE OF USE  17th or 18th century.  So, they believe it was made in the Edo period.   [Let the arguments commence! :)]”.

 

I know many members will think (and state?) that the museum could be wrong.

But maybe the museum could be right in their assessment?

Who knows, just some more interesting stuff about cast iron tsuba.

 

[Brian]

Show me their "expert" and where he studied Nihonto and tsuba manufacture methods. As far as I know, no museum has a Nihonto expert on board aside from Marcus, and their "experts" are at the level of the mid level member here.
Not like they have access to info we don't have. In fact, probably far less.

[MauroP]

Dan, please go here and read all the stuff...

 

https://www.openmovportal.ca/argus/final/Portal/Main.aspx?component=AAFG&record=a7450643-c397-4d2e-a9a6-0cea5b180791

Edited September 8 by MauroP
wrong link

[Dan tsuba]

Well Mauro,

I went to the site you stated and found that frog motif tsuba.

Part of the description from the museum is shown below-

 

"Date of Use-

17th or 18th Century

 

The iron plate of this tsuba was cast not forged.

 

PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION

Iron; roughly oval; frog carved in the round in relief; no signature legible.

 

MATERIAL

metal, copper

metal, silver alloy (?)

 

TECHNIQUE

cast

chased

engraved

pierced”

 

I have included the pictures of the tsuba below from the other thread.

 

Now, to me, that is a cast iron tsuba that has been overcleaned so it appears more silver in color (as overcleaned iron tsuba tend to do).

 

Just my opinion!

 

[Curran]

...  

[Dan tsuba]

Hi Curran!

What is that cryptic beer mug in your last post supposed to represent?

This Buds for you!

Thanks for your support, and I will also drink to that!

Ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!

Onward to more Edo period cast iron tsuba research!

 

[Dan tsuba]

Well, I found an interesting comment to the Marcus Sesko article (which is a great article) about the Nara find of casting molds.  That discovery initially started me on my journey on this thread about cast iron tsuba. 

 

I was referred to the Sesko article by a post on this thread dated 1/27/2022. 

 

I haven’t revisited that article until about an hour ago! 

 

What I found was a comment (written by another individual) added at the bottom of that article on 10/12/2022. 

 

The article by Sesko can be found here- 

https://markussesko.com/2016/01/20/cast-sword-fittings/ 

 

Here is what part of that comment stated- 

“I have long maintained that many sukashi tsuba were originally cast and then converted to malleable iron by carburisation – in effect by heating in firescale. We know this process is used for kettles, allowing the surface to be chiselled and otherwise worked. The commonly advocated method of their production, being cut out of a plate by sawing, would demand the existance of sawblades capable of intricate cuts, similar to modern piercing saw blades. By casting and then carburising, the basic form of the tsuba would then only need refning using files or even more likely scrapers.” 

 

Just some more interesting stuff! 

 

[Brian]

@Markus Accurate of your opinion today? :-)

[Markus]

@Brian Are you referring to my article or to Ian's comment to it Dan quoted here?

 

[Brian]

Sorry, I should have clarified. I was asking if you agree with Ian's comment on your article :-)
Btw, is Ian still ok? Haven't heard from him in ages. I hope all is well.

[ROKUJURO]

The cited part of the article contains some mistakes:

To make cast iron malleable or workable to an extent, it has to be decarburized, not carburized. 

The idea that tools like modern saw blades could have been available to the TSUBAKO is not realistic. We have to research what actually was available and cannot go from what we have now.

Chasing with fine TAGANE and filing was the main work in earlier times, but, following to Ford Hallam, in later EDO JIDAI, they had fine jewellers saws. These did not have a cutting saw blade as we know them today, but a fine wire. With a bit of oil on it and fine diamond powder, very narrow cuts could be executed with this saw. 

Work time was not an issue in those days.... 

[Markus]

2 hours ago, Brian said:

Sorry, I should have clarified. I was asking if you agree with Ian's comment on your article :-)
Btw, is Ian still ok? Haven't heard from him in ages. I hope all is well.

 

To be honest, I don't know 😇 I have moved away much from the metallurgical/making view in the Japanese arms and armor world over the last years. Would love to dig back in, but I am lacking the metallurgical education on the one hand, and on the other hand, also wouldn't have the time to do so if I wanted, so I want to leave that aspect to others.

 

Edit: A friend of mine visited Ian last year and said he was doing alright.

 

[Markus]

2 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

The cited part of the article contains some mistakes:
 

 

The cited part is from a comment, not from my article.

[ROKUJURO]

Ah, thank you! I didn't get that!

[Dan tsuba]

Well, my friends there you have it! 

 

If a tsuba was made from cast iron in the Edo period (and cast iron has a high carbon content) and then decarburized (to lower its carbon content) and in doing so make it more malleable for addition of motif or design, could that ever be determined or detected?

 

Maybe even with non-invasive metallurgical testing, could that testing discern if it was first cast and then decarburized? 

 

Where is a university degreed metallurgical expert when you need one? 

 

Like I said before, maybe this thread needs to be locked? 

 

In my opinion nobody really knows anything, and everybody is just guessing. 

 

Only a few courageous members are willing to take a stand that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period. 

 

Just my opinion. 

 

[MauroP]

Have space aliens ever landed on Earth? Who knows... 
Possible? Yes, of course! Likely? No, of course!
Have iron tsuba been casted in Edo period? The same as above... that's all IMHO.