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Jaimeromao6666

Katana

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Olá a todos os membros do Grupo!

 Comprei duas lâminas de katana em uma loja de antiguidades que não eram importantes e foram abandonadas na loja. Não tenho conhecimento da katana, fiz pesquisas e as características da espada me lembram do período kamakura. Ficarei muito grato com qualquer informação que você puder me orientar! obrigado.

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Hello Sir Peter Bleed, when I bought the swords they were kept inside the saya and had tsuka, but they were very damaged.  The blades had many spots of rust, I removed with hydrochloric acid.  These blades do not look like other damask steel katanas that I bought in Toledo / Spain, I believe they are authentic from Japan. The two blades contain hamon, and all characteristics of an authentic kamakura katana. 

Thanks for listening!

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The blades shown above are clearly damascus blades, non-Japanese. And even if they were, by admission of using hydrochloric acid on them, you've committed a huge no-no in nihonto (and ruined them). Never, EVER, do anything that would impact the condition of the steel other than removing and reoiling a blade. That is something this forum will never tolerate; this stance is at the words of every proper togishi (Japanese blade polisher) who has received the years of proper training it takes to make nihonto shine.

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It doesn’t look like Damascus steel to me. It does look like something treated with acid though.

 

The writing looks legit, can someone translate?  The first one looks amateurishly made though. I could be wrong on all the above.

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thanks to everyone for the guidelines as i said i don't have a total knowledge about katana my biggest concern was to remove the micro rust spots that existed on the blade because i really liked the blades that don't look like another sword that i have made of damask steel but i may be wrong again  if the blade is authentic i believe that a polishing job can restore the shine because they were just micro rust spots thanks to all

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These are chinese made replicas. For future reference if they were authentic you would've done irreparable damage to them using acid to clean them.

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I saw some videos on YouTube of specialized people polishing blades they recover all the shine but unfortunately I don't have that kind of work where I live but I am still in doubt are the blades real or false?  making a comparison with damask steel it is very different the blades are of a single color steel the damask has two colors someone in the group knows how to say what is written on the blades thank you

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Unless they are a properly trained togishi, they should not be doing polishing work and no one should seek to emulate them. Becoming a proper togishi takes years of work under someone with the experience. Most of those people are found in Japan.

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I do believe this type of look comes from what is called "pattern welded steel". Which is simply multiple thin layers of same/similar steel that have been stacked together, edge tack welded together, then heated and hammer forged together, WITHOUT any folding occurring. The slight difference in layer colors, mainly comes from the surface skin carbon/scale that is present on each individual layer of thin steel that has been stacked together. The surface impurities show up after hammer forging has fussed the individual sheets together.

You can clearly see the layered detail even in the nakago, which you never seen in a true Japanese sword. The layers only appear in a true Japanese sword after careful, proper polishing.

 

My .02 worth.

 

Mark

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1 minute ago, Jaimeromao6666 said:

Screenshot_20210502-004023.thumb.png.b4be34c76b0ef6d8bba8bfe1b58825c0.pngScreenshot_20210502-004023.thumb.png.b4be34c76b0ef6d8bba8bfe1b58825c0.png

Screenshot_20210502-010034_1.png

This is a blade of damask steel compared to the blade I bought. I thank everyone for the guidance for informing me that this is an imitation. It was the research I did on some sites that made me believe they were original pieces. Thanks

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20 minutes ago, MHC said:

Eu acredito que esse tipo de aparência vem do que é chamado de "aço soldado de padrão". Que são simplesmente várias camadas finas do mesmo aço / semelhante que foram empilhadas juntas, pontos de solda das bordas juntos, depois aquecidos e forjados com martelo, SEM ocorrer qualquer dobramento. A ligeira diferença nas cores das camadas vem principalmente do carbono / escama da superfície da pele que está presente em cada camada individual de aço fino que foi empilhada. As impurezas da superfície aparecem depois que o forjamento com martelo junta as folhas individuais.

Você pode ver claramente os detalhes em camadas até mesmo no nakago, que você nunca viu em uma verdadeira espada japonesa. As camadas só aparecem em uma verdadeira espada japonesa após um polimento cuidadoso e adequado.

 

Meu valor de 0,02.

 

marca

If you increase your proposal we can negotiate rsrsrsrs

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The picture of the "Toledo" blade also appears to be a modern replica as well, which is a copy based on the original swords of days gone by. It too is a pattern welded blade, it is not an authentic Damascus steel blade. You can go online and buy those replica blades for only several hundred dollars, they are a very popular tourist items, and military folks pick them up while on leave as well.

Additionally, many absolutely just like that can be found on several other sword collector forums for sale.

 

Mark

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7 hours ago, MHC said:

I do believe this type of look comes from what is called "pattern welded steel". Which is simply multiple thin layers of same/similar steel that have been stacked together, edge tack welded together, then heated and hammer forged together, WITHOUT any folding occurring. The slight difference in layer colors, mainly comes from the surface skin carbon/scale that is present on each individual layer of thin steel that has been stacked together. The surface impurities show up after hammer forging has fused the individual sheets together.....

 

Mark,

unfortunately, you are completely wrong. Pattern welded steel is mainly found in early Viking blades, and it is made by intensively folding, twisting and forge-welding work. Please read 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel

for more information.

The blades shown above (with the exception of Jacques' blade) have absolutely nothing to do with Japanese forging techniques, and this applies as well to the lower photo on the JSSUS paper.

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They are not Japanese, never were Japanese and never will be Japanese.
EVERYTHING is wrong with these. The shape, the fake kanji, the steel, everything. There is not one thing there that looks Japanese. I have $100 for you if they turn out to be Japanese. They won't.
I could point out multiple things. But there is no point. Many people told you, now I am saying it with zero doubt.

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That's an interesting article Jacques

4 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

chemical treatment to reveal their structure.

I checked Wikipedia, though, and they don't mention acid treatment.

"Damascus steel was the forged steel of the blades of swords smithed in the Near East from ingots of Wootz steel[1] either imported from Southern India or made in production centres in Sri Lanka,[2] or Khorasan.[3] These swords are characterized by distinctive patterns of banding and mottling reminiscent of flowing water, sometimes in a "ladder" or "rose" pattern. Such blades were reputed to be tough, resistant to shattering, and capable of being honed to a sharp, resilient edge.[4]

Wootz (Indian), Fulad (Persian), Fuladh (Arabic), Bulat (Russian) and Bintie (Chinese) are all names for historical ultra-high carbon crucible steel typified by carbide segregation."300px-Watered_pattern_on_sword_blade1.IrClose-up of a 13th-century Persian-forged Damascus steel sword

Tha'ts just a small sample of the article.  Maybe guys are imitating the look of Damascus steel by using the acid treatment.

 

Sorry for diverging off topic, but I've never gotten educated on what Damascus steel really is before.

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I go with the guys, a blatant fake with acid treatment. Boshi is all kind of wrong, and let’s not even talk about the kanji. Sorry man, but that’s the truth.

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Jean, I humbly beg to differ.... the only thing that could be misconstrued as wrong, is the fact that SOME (not all) modern blacksmiths do indeed fold or twist their welded stack of thin steel sheets(in order to attempt to get accreditation from the modern blacksmithing community). I have reviewed and overseen classes in blacksmithing as an experiment in knowledge gathering, and have seen 1st hand through class instruction and actual examples of worked steel (both new and old) that were attempts to replicate the LOOK of the original Wootz steel Damascus blades. I have seen as many as 100 pieces of .020 thick sheets of steel all stacked together, edge tack welded then heated in a forge and hammer welded together. Once shaped and semi polished, these displayed the pattern exactly as seen in the bogus sword shown in the photo. I was simply commenting on examples I've held in my had as a comparison.

 

Yes, some blacksmiths from far back in history tried many ways to duplicate true Damascus steel, all with varying degrees of failure. The Wikipedia article you linked, tells us as much.

 

Furthermore I was not trying to give a thesis on the history and manufacture of original Wootz crucible pattern steel Damascus blades, or on Pattern welded blades, I was once again, simple commenting on the shown blade from the original OP, and giving a loose overview of how most likely THAT blade was made.

 

Original Wootz crucible Patterned Damascus steel was just that, a crucible steel, not a welded pattern steel ingot...huge difference between each of these.

 

I have not studied the construction of Viking swords, so I am not competent to comment regarding them.

 

Politely,

Mark

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Every cloud has a silver lining and the happy lining here is that you don’t need to worry about that acid wash just this one time: don’t get me wrong the pitting and steel corrosion acid will do, which can never be fully fixed, is a terrible way to lose thousands were it an antique.

 

The reason you don’t need to worry this one time is as everyone noted: these are cheap replicas so little of value was lost. In the future, if you see that weird tyedie etched looking “Damascus” hada, along with things like that misshapen kisaki, stay away since those are the hallmarks of poorly made acid etched replica.

 

Seriously though, when you get a nihonto, stay away from acid and abrasives since that’s a very easy way to cut its value to a fraction.

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Good afternoon, gentlemen, I understood that due to my lack of information, I damaged one of the but the other blade is shiny and does not have many rust spots. In my innocence, I believed that the swords were really original. and the way I found them led me to believe that they were real

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