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why with hagire

goose710

By goose710
in Nihonto

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goose710 Collaborator

goose710

Posted
Posted

Gentlemen

Why is it people will bid on a sword with three hagire and kosabi(rust)????

atributed to hokke saburou nobufusa gendai/showa era.

a 50,000 yen auction now stands at 96,000 yen.

i'm at a loss. in shirasaya yet no fittings to compensate.

any thoughts?

Charles L. Grusovnik

aka goose710

nagamaki - Franco Veteran

nagamaki - Franco

Posted
Posted
Recommending this sword for use in cutting excercise is like recommending a car with loose lugnuts for racing. What can happen, will not be good.

 

but, Ted, I kinda like racing around with loose lug nuts ....... :badgrin:

 

seriously, the consequences of what Ted is saying is no joking matter for anyone being tempted by frivolous thoughts. If I recall correctly, one of 'fig' Newton's three cookies states something like, an object in motion remains in motion until acted upon by an outside force. And, should that outside force happen to be some unfortunate human standing in the wrong place at the wrong time, and the object in motion arrives in the form of a broken sword, " What can happen, will not be good. "

Henry Stewart Community Regular

Henry Stewart

Posted
Posted

Charles L.

Sir;

 

It may be that the bidder in question wants the blade for a particular reason,I have heard in my studies along the way that Nobefusa was credited with making a few blades for some notable Military gentlemen. It is I believe held albeit as opinion that he used a steel amalgum he produced himself using Tamahagane as a base substance. I may be remiss in nomenclature but I think its called Orishhagane or something similar and is still in some quarters also refered to as Nihonto alongside traditionally formed Tamhagane. It is also believed that this amalgum unless strictly controlled in production would be produced in less than homogenous quantities and it is thought that this fact alone would lead to serious difficulties in heating to very high temperatures and suddenly quenching in even tepid waters. The forces set up during such a procedure produces strains where dissimilar stratum of variable metals gave way leaving fissures or splits in the metal leaving you with forging faults,many of them not readily visible.

I do know Kazushige Tsuruta san as a forthright and very accurate gentleman and very rarely wrong. I do agree with my untraied eye,that I cant see them either. But if he says they are there I would strongly advise you believe what is written.As for Tamishigirae--well? Henry

Brian

Brian

Posted
Posted

Henry,

Lug nuts are those bolts that hold the wheels on ;)

Perhaps someone could clarify this with Tsuruta san? I know it is unlike them to advise something like this, so perhaps he meant iai or something else somewhere? Either way, at least it is clearly mentioned if not pointed out in the pictures.

 

Brian

Henry Stewart Community Regular

Henry Stewart

Posted
Posted

Brian;

 

Yes I take your point it is well made. I am convinced he wouldnt recommend tamashagirae if there was any question of fatal flaw actually through hamon which could lead to catastrophic failure. I do however follow the comments made by members and wont say I'm 100%. However he is the expert in this field,its unfortunate its holiday followed by weekend,though I will phone asap. Sometimes it is possible for hagire to be proclaimed through one side where there is a microscopic piece of good metal at the Ha. He does examine blades very closely indeed and the slightest mark is highlighted,I have one of his blades and he mentions a mark and after several months I'm still looking.I suppose its how the definitioin of Hagire is perceived. You could say its a crack leading from the cutting edge right through the hamon into the softer metal,where the hamon is in effect broken and it is immaterial whether it is a forging fault or as a result of the blade striking something. Its still a serious fault which could lead to the blade shattering the next time it strikes anything.I wonder if that is a universal view widley held.

 

Henry

loiner1965 Experienced

loiner1965

Posted
Posted
Henry,

Lug nuts are those bolts that hold the wheels on ;)

Perhaps someone could clarify this with Tsuruta san? I know it is unlike them to advise something like this, so perhaps he meant iai or something else somewhere? Either way, at least it is clearly mentioned if not pointed out in the pictures.

 

Brian

lol.......we british just call it a wheel nut :D

Ted Tenold Mentor

Ted Tenold

Posted
Posted

The reality of the situation is... You didn't miss anything. ;)

 

Personally, I dont' know why someone would pay that for the sword, but looking at other swords and fittings is time better spent anyway.

Baka Gaijin Grand Master

Baka Gaijin

Posted
Posted

Good Morning all

 

Adopting the Devil's Advocate position briefly:

 

 

Hagire is an extremely emotive term.

 

Looking closely at the images of the blade, I can only make out a faint line, very very small which looks like a 90 degree Hagire about a "screen" inch away from the Yokote.

 

As far as I understand, Hagire can be acceptable in a blade providing it does not go through the hamon into the core metal.

 

The blade is described as being quite wide and thick with Suguha Hamon, which suggests a more robust edge strength.

 

Perhaps one of our sword swinging members can elaborate.

 

Best regards to all

 

Malcolm

Henry Stewart Community Regular

Henry Stewart

Posted
Posted

Ted

 

Many thanks for your opinion; I was beginning to think I was slipping in old age.

 

Malcolm

 

You may have a point; trouble is I know nothing of the practice of Tamashagirie or what its practitioners require of their blades,except clearly they must be sharp and last. Any help out there?

 

Henry

Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Veteran

Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini

Posted
Posted

Hi Henry.

 

Tameshigiri in recent times have begun a little abused term especially in US and can mislead a potential purchaser .

Lots of teenagers cutting soaked beach mats or pool noodles call it "Tameshigiri" and most of them sooner or later begin to cut bamboo or other types of targets many times with no (or not enough) proper training.

 

That's why Ted is afraid about the quality of the blades to be used in such an action.

Hagire are a no-no when safety is required. Call it overcautious thinking, but on other fora you can read topics and see pictures of what happen when something doesn't work, for any reason. Better safe then sorry.

Condition of the tsuka is another thing overlooked using an antique for cutting.

Lesser (but *healthy*,refurbished and well-cared-for) antiques are sometimes used by well-trained (read silverback) practicioners as in the past there were little to no chance to get a custom made sword, either Japanese or american made but nowaday is much better, especially for young people, to have your custom-made sword for such a practice.

Fits your body and school requirements much better then likely any antique (deserving this fate) you can purchase, and (if properly made by a professional) are more forgiving then an antique that most likely already suffered his own share of battering.

This doesn't mean an antique is a lesser sword then a modern replica or a Shinsakuto.

 

I bet Gabriel, out there, is scratching his head as me about the topic's sword...

 

Might be the original intentions were to promote it for forms (kata) and not cutting (tameshigiri).

Yet, for forms too antiques still have their limitations for the very same reasons : dimensions, weight and Tsuka conditions.

Ted Tenold Mentor

Ted Tenold

Posted
Posted

Hagire is an extremely emotive term.

 

It's only emotive if you own the sword. Otherwise, its a pure discriptor for a flaw that is forgiveable *only* within the context of appearing on an extremely rare or iconic piece that would never again be considered for use a cutting instrument even lacking a hagire.

 

Looking closely at the images of the blade, I can only make out a faint line, very very small which looks like a 90 degree Hagire about a "screen" inch away from the Yokote.

 

I wouldn't care if nothing could be seen. It's been disclosed as having a crack. Why question it further?

 

As far as I understand, Hagire can be acceptable in a blade providing it does not go through the hamon into the core metal.

 

If you are positioning this as an acceptable trait of a working blade, then this stands in stern opposition to all conventional reason. Please feel free to quote your sources of information regarding this.

 

The blade is described as being quite wide and thick with Suguha Hamon, which suggests a more robust edge strength.

 

The wings on the plane are bigger so don't mind the stress fractures in the spars. :crazy: Nope, sorry...looks great in the hanger, but don't fly it.

 

Perhaps one of our sword swinging members can elaborate.

 

This really isn't the forum for that, but perhaps check with a couple of the other forums that have some very highly skilled and qualified instructors and let us know what they think.

 

When it comes to the subject of using swords with hagire for *any* activity whether cutting or kata, the Devil doesn't need any help and we don't need his.

b.hennick Grand Master

b.hennick

Posted
Posted

When it comes to the subject of using swords with hagire for *any* activity whether cutting or kata, the Devil doesn't need any help and we don't need his.

 

_________________

Ted Tenold

NMB Moderator

Well said Ted!

A sword with hagire is an accident waiting to happen. Try to cut and it may break sending a missile towards an unprepared subject of the next cutting test. To use such a blade is probably a chargeable criminal offense - reckless endangerment comes to mind.

This forums focus is sword study and preservation rather than sword usage. I think it is time to close this thread.

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