Please help identify. I’m a novice

[Nick dominguez]

I acquired this sword from a person who’s grandfather brought it back from WW2. We know nothing about it accept I talked to someone who said it was at least 1700s 1800s any help identifying it would be wonderful. Wondering if it’s worth having it restored or just hang it on my wall?? Might consider selling it. I just don’t know anything about it. 

[Shugyosha]

Hi Nick,

Welcome to NMB.

The signature is partially obscured but luckily it's possible to work out who it is (assuming it's genuine): 佐渡(の)掾藤[原宗平]

There may be characters before this, but the part that is visible reads Sado (no) Jo Fuji (the first four characters in the line above). Sado is an island off Japan and one of the old provinces. "Jo" is a honorary title equating to a subordinate government official so our guy held the rank of government official of Sado province. Fortunately, there was only one smith awarded this title - Fujiwara Munehira who worked in Hizen province around the Kanbun era (1661-1673) and yes, it is confusing that he had a rank relating to a province in which he didn't live.

 

"Fujiwara" was the name of an old aristocratic family in Japan with whom he probably had no connection, but this it is not unusual for swordsmiths to take the name of one of the old Japanese aristocratic families (Fujiwara, Minamoto, Taira are common) and this doesn't seem to be something that was done officially but done by the smith themselves to add weight to their reputation. His art name was Munehira and again it's usual for swordsmiths and other artists in Japan to take an art name, usually linked to that of their master or instructor and different from their family name.

 

I'm sure you'll get some more comments soon but I hope that this gets the ball rolling.

[Nick dominguez]

That is so exciting. To think this thing is almost 400 years old. Would you think it would be worth it to get it restored? I feel like someone tried putting a whetstone to it at some point.  As far as if it is original I know for a fact it came back at the end of WW2. I’ve seen pictures of it with the gi in Japan before he brought it home. I wonder do you think it is worth anything? 

[SteveM]

John got it right. Maybe add 肥前 to the front of the mei, making it 肥前佐渡掾藤原宗平 . The mei looks very similar to the one shown in the pictures in the tweet below. Restoration is not cheap (a few thousand dollars), but your sword might be worth it. I mean, regardless of the cost, preserving the sword is a worthy pursuit, but often the restored sword's resell value will fall below the cost of the restoration. In the case of your sword, if you get it professionally polished and it ends up looking as good as the sword below, I think the resell value could be higher than the cost of the polish. "Could be" leaves a lot of wiggle room, mind you. I doubt it would be a fabulous investment from a profit standpoint. A proper polish, a new wooden resting scabbard, a new metal collar (these three are usually considered the minimum for restoration) would set you back maybe $3000-$4000. 

 

The negatives are: the sword is from a time period that doesn't excite many collectors (with some exceptions). The rough polish this sword has been given may have already ruined it. The patina on the tang is ruined, but this might be restorable. There could be fatal flaws lurking in the blade that would discourage collectors. The signature could be a fake, as is very common in the sword world. (The sword is an actual Japanese sword, but someone could have added a signature sometime in the past to "enhance" its value).

 

The positives are: looks like a good size, it must be 70cm or longer? In general, long swords (katana) with an intact tang with signature are desirable. If the signature is authentic, the blade should have a temper pattern (hamon) similar to the one in the tweet. The connection with Hizen province in Japan, and the lineage of well-known and respected smiths, hints at a well-made blade.

 

The neutrals: the sword furnishings look like a hodgepodge of boring fittings, possibly assembled during wartime when one had to make due with whatever materials were on hand. The fittings excite neither the collector of militaria, nor the connoisseur of antique swords. But the good thing is that you can make new fittings using authentic metal fixtures (tsuba, fuchi, kashira, menuki). The existing menuki might be OK. Scabbard and pommel would be made with new wooden parts, and the silk pommel wrapping would require new silk, but this is normal in restoration (and you could keep the existing parts separately if you like). 

 

One of the jobs of the professional polisher to get the fine crystalline structures of the hamon to look like what you see in the photos in the tweet. When people grind away with abrasive tools they ruin those structures, so avoid anyone who isn't known in the sword world. Some of the people on this site can help you. Avoid the temptation to do it yourself or to follow some dude on youtube who's got a million followers.

 

Edit: Don't hang it on the wall.

Edit #2: The menuki don't look too special. Save as antiques, but if you are restoring the blade I would go for better furnishings.

 

 

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Nick,

I recommend that you don't get this sword restored, at least not now before you understand a lot more than you currently do.  Restoration does nothing to preserve the sword; a fine coat of machine oil will do that. Here is a care and handling brochure you should read:

http://nbthk-ab.org/cleaning-maintenance.php

Some day, if you develop a serious interest in Japanese swords and you know a bunch more about them, maybe you'll want to get this one polished and put into shirasaya (new resting scabbard).  I don't think it makes sense to have it done now.

Grey

[Ken-Hawaii]

I agree with Grey. It's not time, yet.

[Brian]

If you go to the top of the forum, under Nihonto Info --> FAQ you will see some relevant musings about having things restored etc.
Well worth reading, and of course we should advise people to read the FAQ more often. Some of that was written by @Grey Doffin too.

 

[Jacques]

Humm...

 

According Fujishiro's Shinto hen, works of this swordsmith are rare (rated chu-jo). that seems true as i can find only one oshigata in Toko taikan which is unfortunately too small to be useful.

 

 

[Shugyosha]

2 minutes ago, Jacques D. said:

Humm...

 

According Fujishiro's Shinto hen, works of this swordsmith are rare (rated chu-jo). that seems true as i can find only one oshigata in Toko taikan which is unfortunately too small to be useful.

 

 

 

I couldn't find an example on line.

[Jacques]

I just find this one which is hozon 

 

http://lll.pro.tok2.com/bdata/0109801b.htm

[Nick dominguez]

Everything you guys are saying is fascinating to me. Are there any different pictures I could take that would help you? Any suggestions what a person could do to find out for certain of it is real? Where to go, who to send it to? Costs And I’ll be honest, I’m not sure as stated above if i should have it restored. I feel I’m in a particular situation here out of my league and out of my depth lol. Any thoughts?  Also thank you for all of the helpful comments. 

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Nick,

If you would like to talk with someone, get a bunch of questions answered in one swell foop, feel free to call.  I'm not an authority but I have been at this for almost 40 years and I will be honest with my answers.

Cheers,  Grey  218-726-0395 central time

[vajo]

Wartime civillian employee koshirae. These menuki are part of the bamboo leaves set. The leather sheet is missing.

The Tsuka is very nice. Someone rubbed and sanded the nakago, what is very sad.

 

That was a proud sword. 

 

 

[Nick dominguez]

After seeing what you guys have posted and talking to a couple of you, I think the right thing for me to do is to sell this to someone who can appreciate it and will give it the life it deserves. I came across this because it was being lost in a pawn shop by someone I know and I couldn’t see it living that life. So I payed to get it out and I payed her for the sword in order to see what it’s next step should be. 
 

I’m not interested in delving deep into the life of swords. I love my old books more. Then again I couldn’t see it living  that life with the age and beauty that it has. 
 

i would love it if some of you could give me an idea of what you think I should sell it for. I will post it after I get your thoughts in the for sale section. I just honestly have no idea what a fair offer Would be. Thank you

[Surfson]

Hi Nick.  

I imagine if you put it in an online auction, at an auction house or ebay, with better pictures and some measurements, it would probably sell for between $500-$1500.   This is just a guess, as one never knows in auctions.  If there is only one person interested, it could go for less, if there are two that are very interested, it could go for more.  

 

I agree with nearly all of the feedback that you got.  Steve mentioned that it is probably not worth the investment to restore, and I agree with him.  It hinges on whether it has flaws, whether the tang truly has been stripped and whether the sword has been modified a bit (the signature goes high up, so it may not be machiokuri, which is a lengthening of the tang and shortening of the cutting edge.  As mentioned, it has modest fittings.  None of us can tell if there are any important flaws in the steel of the blade, which would definitely make it unworthy of restoring, at least from a financial view.  On the bright side, if study of the signature suggests that it is a genuine sword made by Munehira, and there is a Hizento collector that really wants one, and the tang is not too bad, AND it is in restorable condition, it could also go for a little more.  That is a lot of ifs....

 

I assume that it didn't cost you too much and hopefully you can buy a good rare book with the proceeds.  

[MHC]

Hi guys,

 

What could of caused that line, just above the mei on the nakago? I can only see 1 side of the nakago, as there are no photos of the other side.

 

The line seems to have a large center divot area, then the line disappears but then re-appears and goes up and over the spine(sorry don't know the correct term for the top of the nakago).

 

Almost..... dare I say looks like it could possibly be a butt weld in that section?? 

 

I'm probably just seeing things that aren't there, probably my machinist eye coming out to haunt me.

 

Mark