Translation on special order blade maybe- please?

[shakudo]

Hi All,

On phone so hope pics have loaded fully, fingers crossed. Firstly many thanks to Brian and all involved with this fabulous forum. I'm a regular visitor but rarely post- tech savy -Not!

I have been able to purchase this blade and I must admit the old saying purchase the blade not the signature is so true. I'm  guessing this is gimei but honestly- every time I draw this blade " I shiver with anticipation". 

I need the mei translated just so I know what is there! Pretty sure the omote is

Bizen kuni ju kawachi no kami Sukesada but the ura-well thats a different story! I've got Fujiwara kuni  and kore? Big ask I know but can I please have romanji and the translation as well as I cant find kanji like this anywhere in my small library? Hope thats not to much to ask- especially the kanji at the top- what is that?

Now that I know I can list and send pics on phone I will forward some pics of this blades sugata and try to capture the hamon- in General Nihonto section for advice on type and maybe period?

Especially like and aware of the tagane use on this mei- thoughts?

Once again thank you to all members who spare their time to help fellow members and I assure you it is very much appreciated.

Cheers Michael. 

 

[mywei]

爲

吉田六左衛門尉藤原国家造之

元禄十二年八月日

 

Yoshida Rokuzaemon (no) Jo Fujiwara Kuniie Tsukuru kore

Genroku 12 (1699), day in August

[shakudo]

Hi Matt,

Thank you so much great toknow what is there.  But can I ask the kanji at the very top? Special order or order or?

Many y thanks for your time and thanks for looking in.

Cheers Michael

 

[Bugyotsuji]

爲　為 are both Tamé, (the former an older Kanji), with a slew of meanings, generally something like ‘for’.

[shakudo]

Hi Piers,

Thank you so much. All making sense now. Will list blade in General Nihonto now for some learned discussion.

My thanks for taking the time.

Michael

[Bruce Pennington]

16 hours ago, mywei said:

爲

吉田六左衛門尉藤原国家造之

元禄十二年八月日

 

Yoshida Rokuzaemon (no) Jo Fujiwara Kuniie Tsukuru kore

Genroku 12 (1699), day in August

Forgive my ignorance, but this is just one side, right?  What about the side with the Chrysanthemum?  And does the presence of the chrysanthemum have particular significance?

Thanks!

[PNSSHOGUN]

Usually indicates the smith was under retainership by the Shogunate. 

[Bazza]

19 hours ago, mywei said:

爲

吉田六左衛門尉藤原国家造之

元禄十二年八月日

 

Yoshida Rokuzaemon (no) Jo Fujiwara Kuniie Tsukuru kore

Genroku 12 (1699), day in August

Matt, 

 

I think it is Genroku 14 ( juu ni ni)?   This is the strangest nakago I can recall seeing from a putative Genroku era sword.  The nakago looks like it is has been smoothed and acid washed to give it a grey appearance, and the kanji tagane and looks like it was done “yesterday”??  Looking forward to more photos.

 

Regards,

BaZZa

(Melbourne, Australia)

[mywei]

Hi Barry

 

I'm fairly certain it's just 十二 with no second 二

 

Maybe it's the photos but the nakago and inscription does look remarkably fresh and well preserved almost like it was done in the last century!

[shakudo]

Hi Bazza, Id guess its the camera as its photographed in a black box to cut reflections. Did say I thought it was gimei! Will put some pics up later in week to hear everyones opinions but as I said - gimei. 

Hi Matt ,  sorry " +2 with no second 2" ?

Cheers Michael.

[Bazza]

3 minutes ago, shakudo said:

Hi Bazza, Id guess its the camera as its photographed in a black box to cut reflections. Did say I thought it was gimei! Will put some pics up later in week to hear everyones opinions but as I said - gimei. 

Hi Matt ,  sorry " +2 with no second 2" ?

Cheers Michael.

I’ll explain this “ni ni” with photos when I get my new computer in a few days.  Right now struggling with an iPad which I find clunky for this type of work...

 

BaZZa.

[Tom Darling]

Indeed, it clearly shows very fresh characters, that is devoid of yasuri-me, which is a conundrum.  I don't care for either the kiku or ichi,  used to make the blade  more interesting,  in other words gimei.  Along with Sukesada, Sukenaga 2nd gen. of the kayei (1848) period used the kiku and ichi  incised perfectly.  Peace.

 

 

TomD.

 

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

One here for comparison.

https://www.e-sword.jp/katana/1810-1063.htm

[16k]

As I said in the other thread, the strange shape, the fresh characters... couldn’t we imagine that a special order sword In a very peaceful and rich period of Japanese history deviate from the standards and be preserved way better that a random sword? Maybe this was made for a rich samurai who collected swords, never used it and was kept as some kind of relic. I know that’s a lot of "could" but I wouldn’t  rule it out for a special order sword.

[Bruce Pennington]

A little education please - I understand the significance of the chrysanthemum, but what does the ichi mean?  or why the two together? Thanks!

[16k]

Wondering that too. Could it be a claim that they trace back their lineage to Biden Ichimonji?

 

EDIT: lololololol!

Bruce has just asked me the meaning of my joke on Biden Ichimonji. Well, sadly, it was no joke. Spellcheck just changed my "Bizen" into "Biden" (though both probably belong to the same period  ). I’ll leave it as a proof that we should always read twice before posting.

[Nihonto Otaku]

On 9/22/2020 at 12:33 AM, PNSSHOGUN said:

Usually indicates the smith was under retainership by the Shogunate. 

I am sorry, John. But I think chrysanthemum crest is for the Japan royal family. The most famous sword maker who used chrysanthemum crest in his sword was the retired emperor Gotoba 後鳥羽上皇. If the swordsmith was under the retainership by the Shogunate, the swordsmith would use the crest of the Shogun family. For example, Yasutsugu used Tokugawa's "three Aoi tree leaves" crest in the swords he made.  

[Nihonto Otaku]

For those people who want to know the meaning of the Kanji "Ichi" under the chrysanthemum crest, "Ichi" in Japanese not only has the meaning of "one" but can also be used as bullet point. For example, please look at this official announcement/oath of Meiji reformation from the Meiji government: 

And based on the description of the swordsmith below the hole of the tang "備前国住長船河内守祐定”, the swordsmith is Sukesada of the 長船 Osafune school. So I don't think the "Ichi" in this description refers to the Ichimonji school.

 

On the other hand, for those people who want to get detailed explanation of the description on the tang, here they are:

 

The omote side

備前国 the state of Bizen 住 live 長船 Osafune school 河内守 this is a governmental position title. 河內 is the name of a region in the central area of Japan's Honshuu island. 守 in case of being used as a governmental position title, it means the authority of the region written before this character. But I think this kind of titles "(name of region)守” is just an honorary title since many swordsmiths had this kind of titles but never seemed to actually have governed the region that he was titled with. 祐定 Sukesada

 

The ura side

為 for

吉田 Yoshida is the family name of the commissioner 六左衛門尉 this is also a governmental position title 藤原 Fujiwara is the clan name of the commissioner. Back in the old days, people of Japanese noble/samurai often claimed their families traced back to either of the three of the most influential clans: 藤原 Fujiwara, 源 Minamoto, or 平 Taira.  国家 Kuniie is the given name of the commissioner. 造 made 之 this

元禄十二年八月日 a day in August in the year of 1699 AD

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, TheBigAL said:

detailed explanation

Al,

That's a fabulous explanation, thank you!  So do you think the smith was claiming to be working for the Emperor by using the kiku?

 

Also, and this may be way off-base and useless information, but while cruising the list of Samurai mon, I found this one:

But it would be upside-down on this blade, so that doesn't fit, plus the "Nasu" name is not being used in the mei at all.  But knowing that there were many variations on every mon motif, I wonder if there is a chance that the one on this blade is intentionally flipped and adopted as the kamon of the commissioner of the blade?

[Bugyotsuji]

For reference.

According to this website https://meitou.info/index.php/福岡一文字派

(My translation)

Norimune was the founder of the Fukuoka Ichimonji group. 

He was called the Great Ichimonji 大一文字 as he was the first to cut a 'One' Mei. Described as the Kiku Ichimonji in the 古剣書...Kokensho(reading?).

He was assigned to 1st of January as a Goban Kaji by Emperor Gotoba-In.

Called Bizen Tayu (Taifu), he was given the job of  'Gyobu no Jo'.

He was allegedly No.1 among the Goban Kaji, and allowed to cut a 16-petal chrysanthemum Mon, thus coming to be called the 菊一文字 Kiku-Ichimonji.

則宗 

• 備前福岡一文字派の祖。
• 古剣書においては「菊一文字」と書かれる。最初に一文字銘を切った人という意味で「大一文字」とも呼ばれる。
• 備前太夫と称し、刑部允に任じられた。
• 後鳥羽院の御番鍛冶正月番。
• 御番鍛冶中第一位とされ、十六葉の菊紋を切ることを許され「菊一文字」と呼ばれる。

[mywei]

My initial default thought was that the Ichi meant that the work is a Bizen/ Ichimonji utsushi or style work

 

I recall several Hizen smiths (e.g Yukihiro) also inscribed Ichi as well signifying 'in the Ichimonji style'

 

Edit:. Here's an example 

https://yuhindo.com/hizen-yukihiro-4/

[Gakusee]

Various Echizen smiths also used the kikumon in combination with Ichi. Was done in 17 cent. with daimyo permission. Nothing to do with emperor really or even Ichimonji. Eg Kunikiyo or even Nobuyoshi. 

Your guy: Kawachi no kami Sukesada (so he nabbed the honarary title of gov’nor of Kawachi province)

 

found this interesting papered example where the smith split the mei on both sides https://kknews.cc/news/3xq9eko.html
 

have a look here too and compare to your mei:  https://www.e-sword.jp/katana/1810-1063.htm

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

I wonder if this Sukesada was claiming lineage (or smith-eage) to the Sukefusa Ichimonji line?

"

Old records convey a history in early KAMAKURA times, but the 
significant work was late-KAMAKURA when the BIZEN spotlight falls
on YOSHIOKA. FUKUOKA SUKEFUSA line smiths transfer with ICHIMONJI
style. YOSHIOKA ICHIMONJI period from SHO-O 1288 to GEN-KO 1331.
Energy at FUKUOKA ceases in the late KAMAKURA as attention shifts
to YOSHIOKA and OSAFUNE. 

 

I'd like to add the kiku and ichi to the Stamps Document (I know they aren't "stamps"), but am searching for an accurate description.  I have a good feel for the "ichi" as representing the ichimonji shools of sword-making.  But the kiku - I'm still looking for a good description.  Were they claiming to be under contract of the Imperor/Shogun?  Or was it just a personal style/choice like the Buddhist symbols on blades? Or somethinge else?

[Nihonto Otaku]

8 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Also, and this may be way off-base and useless information, but while cruising the list of Samurai mon, I found this one:

But it would be upside-down on this blade, so that doesn't fit, plus the "Nasu" name is not being used in the mei at all.  But knowing that there were many variations on every mon motif, I wonder if there is a chance that the one on this blade is intentionally flipped and adopted as the kamon of the commissioner of the blade?

The two signs ("Ichi" and the chrysanthemum crest) should be looked as one complete family crest. The samurai family Nasu 那須 can trace back to the legendary samurai archer 那須与一 , who sided with the Minamoto clan during the civil war between Minamoto and Taira during the 12th century. But as to how the Nasu family came up with this family crest design, I don't know the detail.

 

After reading the post from Piers and the links provided by Michael, I believe my original assumption for the "Ichi" following the chrysanthemum on "Kawachi no Kami Sukesada's" blades is wrong. But I believe there must be a reason why Sukesada used Kiku-Ichimonji sign and claimed to associate with the Osafune school. Does anyone have Mr. Iimura's Shinto Taikan? That book might have some good information, hopefully.

[Gakusee]

Sukesada is a Bizen Smith. Sukesada originated there, and Osafune is the key seat of Bizen smiths. 
However, , as I mentioned,  it needs to be viewed it its entirety as a badge of honour or like a medal or insignia of title awarded by a daimyo to a skilled smith. Please do not delve into it thinking it has anything to do with Ichimonji. It does not. See below completely unrelated (ie, not Bizen) smiths employing the kiku and ichi 

 

For instance,  Kunikiyo was granted the right to use the chrysanthemum by Matsudaira Tadamasa, whom he loyally followed around from province to province and he was given an honorary title of “daijo”, subsequently upgraded to “kami”. Interestingly, the honour and right to carve chrysanthemum passed onto his son, the second generation. 

 

 

[mtexter]

On 9/22/2020 at 6:18 AM, shakudo said:

Hi Bazza, Id guess its the camera as its photographed in a black box to cut reflections. Did say I thought it was gimei! Will put some pics up later in week to hear everyones opinions but as I said - gimei. 

Hi Matt ,  sorry " +2 with no second 2" ?

Cheers Michael.

In my limited Japanese studies, the + is actually the kanji for '10' (jyuu), followed by the two dashes on top of each other, which is the kanji for '2' (ni).  so it essentially just means 12 (twelve), or 12th.  So it would be pronounced jyuuni I guess?  I've only been studying for a month or so though.  LONG ways to go yet