Need help with date and stamp

[Itomagoi]

Hello,

I bought a gendaito by the rikugun jumei tosho smith kanehisa with star stamp. Unfortunately I am not 100% sure about the date. Could one of you help me and give me an exakt translation?

 

Also the sword has two stamps on mune. The second one is the "Na" stamp nagoya arsenal but I dont know the "square" stamp.

 

Thank you.

[Itomagoi]

SHOWA JU HACHI NEN HACHI GATSU = 1943 ?

I'm not good at this...

[Itomagoi]

Of course I have looked through the stampf 5.1 pdf by Bruce Pennington, but i just can't find this square stamp.

[Itomagoi]

Maybe this is not a stamp at all, but a mark for the corresponding koshirae?

[SteveM]

昭和十八年三月　　Shōwa jū-hachi nen sangatsu

[Bruce Pennington]

Yes, March 1943.

 

This threw me at first, but I think what we are seeing is an attempt to make a "Na" by hand.  I've attached close-ups side-by-side.

[Itomagoi]

Yes, that's possible. Thanks for your help.

[Bruce Pennington]

It seems that RJT blades almost always have two stamps on the mune, Maybe the higher quality standards required to inspections.

[cisco-san]

Hallo Peter,

 

saw this blade some weeks ago as well if it is the same blade. Seems to be very nice  (and that your wallet was bigger than mine )...

 

kind greetings from Vienna

Klaus

 

[raaay]

i am just wondering looking at  the second photo what all the little indentations are just above the Ana  on the left hand side  ,  a stamp removed ? ?

[cisco-san]

i am just wondering looking at  the second photo what all the little indentations are just above the Ana  on the left hand side  ,  a stamp removed ? ?

most probably - I guess there was a star stamp because blade seems to be traditional made

[Bruce Pennington]

That's interesting! It is in the right place for a star stamp. All other stamps are normally found on the upper right of the ana. There has been confusion about the star for decades, and many felt is was just another mandated stamp indicating "non-traditionally made". So, there have likely been several removed over the years because of that misconception.

 

My main source concerning the stamp is Chris Bowen, who stated:

 

"Regarding the star stamp and its use, Rikugun Jumei Tosho, and whether or not these are traditionally made or not, modern research has shed a great deal of light and shown that in general star stamped blades were traditional in both materials and manufacture. There has been a great many falsehoods perpetuated in Japan, and elsewhere, as concerns these blades in the past. We know better now...

Chris Bowen

鐵會 Tetsu Kai"

[Brian]

Plenty of solid info on the forum about that, and it has been shown years ago here that star stamp = RJT = Gendaito.

[Itomagoi]

Yes, this is the sword, Klaus. I am very happy about the purchase, because it is really very beautiful. :-D

The star stamp is faintly visible but clearly present on this nakago.

[Bruce Pennington]

Do we know which Kanehisa this was? and where he lived?  I see 5 Kanehisa listed in the Swordsmith Index/Nihontoclub.

[george trotter]

Look up Niwa Kanehisa of Gifu on markus Sesko's book...I think it might be him.

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks George, I'll have to take your word for it.  I don't have Markus' book.

[george trotter]

Bruce, you can just type the name into google and often Markus' book entry for it will come up...give it a try.

 

[cisco-san]

On 7/3/2021 at 4:43 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Thanks George, I'll have to take your word for it.  I don't have Markus' book.

Hi Bruce,

 

here you are:

KANEHISA (兼久), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Gifu – “Kanehisa” (兼久), real name Niwa Kihachi (丹羽喜八), his family name Niwa is sometimes also quoted with the characters (丹波), born December 6th 1908, younger brother of Murayama Kanetoshi (村山兼俊), he worked as a rikugun-jumei-tōshō and died January 1st 1989, jōkō no retsu (Akihide), Third Seat at the 6th Shinsaku Nihontō Denrankai (新作日本刀展覧会, 1941)

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, cisco-san said:

Gifu – “Kanehisa” (兼久), real name Niwa Kihachi (丹羽喜八),

 

Thank you Klaus!  I checked that name against the list in the Nihontoclub lists and the closest they had was:

"Known as Tamba Kihachi Kanehisa 丹波喜八." But this one is listed as from Mino.  They reference Hawley.

 

Any idea as to the differences?

[Itomagoi]

 Isn't Mino a city in the Japanese prefecture of Gifu?

 

Another reference for this smith is: Tōkō Taikan (p. 122)

[DoTanuki yokai]

Back in feudal Japan Mino was a own province in southern todays gifu prefecture.

So i think Hawley just uses the old provinces for his reference while others uses the "new provinces" from 1896 but im not sure about the date.

Also Gifu is a city and was part of mino province back then.

 

And yes Mino town is today part of gifu prefecture.

 

I hope i can help with this.

 

[SteveM]

3 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

  I checked that name against the list in the Nihontoclub lists and the closest they had was:

"Known as Tamba Kihachi Kanehisa 丹波喜八."

 

I think it is a typo in the Nihontoclub database. 丹波 can be read either as Tamba or Niwa depending on the context.

It seems in this case it should be read Niwa. 

[mecox]

Yes Steve is correct.  This is my summary.  It is from an article on the 1937 Gifu tosho report, which Brian is currently processing.

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks guys! 

[Itomagoi]

I hope it's okay if I put my question here. I have read with great pleasure the new work of Malcolm Cox "APANESE SWORDSMITHS IN GIFU 1937". At this point thank you very much for the great information.

 

Markus Sesko: KANEHISA (兼久), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Gifu – “Kanehisa” (兼久), real name Niwa Kihachi (丹羽喜八), his family name Niwa is sometimes also quoted with the characters (丹波), born December 6th 1908, younger brother of Murayama Kanetoshi.....

 

My question: Is it possible that Niwa Kanehisa was not the younger brother of Murayama Kanetoshi?

Father of Murayama Kanetoshi is Murayama Kaneyuki and he has two sons Kanetoshi and Kaneshige, not Kanehisa. Or was Kanehisa adopted?

 

 

 

[mecox]

Peter, here is a possibility.    From Seki info I have,  Kanehisa (#34, b.1908) was trained under Kanetoshi (#21, b.1905) so may have been deshi and living with Murayama family. 

Father,  Murayama Kaneyuki (#30, b.1884) trained his 2 sons Murayama Kanetoshi (#21, b.1905) and Murayama Kaneshige (b.1909).  Kaneyuki was trained by Watanabe Kanenaga (#16).   Kaneshige stayed under father Kaneyuki.

But son Kanetoshi looks to have also trained (probably mainly) under Niwa Kanematsu Kanenobu 兼信  (#17, 1874-1941) along with his son Niwa Shuji Kanenobu  兼延 (b.1903; he was adopted).   Kanetoshi then took on Niwa Kanehisa (#34, b.1908) as a student.   

Tosho often sent their sons to peers to train with.  So maybe Niwa Kanehisa (#34) was another adopted son of Niwa Kanematsu Kanenobu (#17) ??? 

 

[Itomagoi]

Yes, that is a possibility. Thank you for this way.