Need help can anyone read this mei?

[Yuradneprov]

Need help translating mei curious who made this katana.

 

Yura Dneprov

[Yuradneprov]

Here is the other side as well

[SteveM]

水寒子貞（秀）

Suikanshi Sada (hide) - the hide part is cut off

 

文化二年八月日

Bunka ni nen, hachigatsu jitsu (1805, August)

[Yuradneprov]

Any idea if this looks like a real mei?

[ChrisW]

Looks very crude, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. I don't know if that particular date and smith has any allure of being falsified.

[Stephen]

Yura

Looks close to me. Date in different scrip.

 

http://ginza.choshuya.co.jp/sale/gj/8301/10/18.htm

 

Chris one should really not shoot something down if you dont search it out.

[ChrisW]

I didn't. I gave a disclaimer with my statement. I know very little when it comes to the veracity of mei.

[Brian]

Looks like a strong, confident mei to me. Not to say it is genuine, but nothing suggesting false to me.

[Yuradneprov]

Thank you guys and is this swordsmith considered a good find or not so much? I believe its the son of Masahide.

[Ed]

I hope for your sake I am wrong, but in my opinion there is a high probability of your sword being gimei.  The mei is poorly cut and there are numerous discrepancies when compared to shoshin mei.

[Vermithrax16]

Looks very crude, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. I don't know if that particular date and smith has any allure of being falsified.

Every single maker has a gimei possibility approaching 100%. If there is one thing I want people to understand, it is that fact. Obscure? One off guy from a school? Unimportant era, no matter. I have seen them for everything.

 

Agree with Ed, did some comps and it's not a mei match. Suriage shinshinto sword is also a negative. Sword may well be nice, but I cannot tell from the limited pics.

[Yuradneprov]

To be honest with you ed and Jeremiah I did my due diligence and sadahide mostly signed as masatsugu and if you look at the mei on most of his swords and then look at the mei on the sword I listed it's a perfect match not saying that it's official yet but I'm very confident that it's the real deal. But I appreciate the comments also if you could would be nice to show what discrepancies your talking about at least a link or reference.

 

Yura dneprov

[ROKUJURO]

This thread should be transferred to TRANSLATION.

[Brian]

Nah..we've translated it already. Now we are debating the maker

[Ed]

To be honest with you ed and Jeremiah I did my due diligence. I'm very confident that it's the real deal.

If that is the case, why did you ask? You already knew the maker and sounds like your mind is made up, in which case there was no reason for me or others to waste our time!  It would have been just as productive and less dishonest to have simply asked for second opinions in the beginning.

 

sadahide mostly signed as masatsugu

Nothing is set in stone, nor do I claim to have seen every shoshin example.

With that said, I have never seen a known good example of Sadhide signing Masatsugu.

 

My understanding is that it was Sandai Masahide, the son of Sadahide (nidai Masahide), who signed Masatsugu.  

 

If you have conclusive information of Sadhide signing  Masatsugu, I would be interested in seeing it. 

 

if you could would be nice to show what discrepancies your talking about at least a link or reference.

I have a better idea.  Why don't you show your references, which validate your opinion and confidence. 

 

Having viewed all three generational mei, I stand by my call of gimei.

 

not saying that it's official yet

Do let us know how that works out for you.

[Yuradneprov]

Not a problem ed will post references shortly for now this is the actual sword.

[Yuradneprov]

https://yuhindo.com/suishinshi-masatsugu/

This is states what I mentioned earlier and if you compasre the handwriting they are identical even the etching in each kanji almost as if he didn't have a steady hand

[Yuradneprov]

There are more available references with his mei pictures if you'd like me to post.

[Ed]

https://yuhindo.com/...nshi-masatsugu/

This is states what I mentioned earlier and if you compasre the handwriting they are identical even the etching in each kanji almost as if he didn't have a steady hand

I don't want to come across as rude but I don't know what you read or what you are looking at.

 

First, Darcy's write up states exactly what I told you previously:  Suishinshi Masatsugu was the third generation Masahide.

He (Masatsugu) did not use the mei Sadhide or Masahide.

 

Second, if you were going to provide an example which was used to base your rationale, it should have been one signed with the same mei your sword is signed; Suikanshi Sadahide, not Masatsugu.

 

Third, I must disagree with your comparison of the characters or "handwriting".  In my opinion they look nothing alike.

 

From what I can see the sword looks like a nice sword, but that doesn't make the mei legit. 

 

Not much more to discuss unless you have better examples to provide.   

 

Once you send this sword to shinsa, update us here with the results.

[Yuradneprov]

Here is another example ed. This one is signed suikanshi sadahide

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/appraisal-quiz-390/

[Yuradneprov]

Like I said please provide references to the information you are stating otherwise I don't mean to be rude but doesnt mean anything unless you have something to back up what you are saying. Second it's completely rational to show you the mei of masatsugu because it's the same wordsmith his writing isn't going to change just because he is using a different name.

[Vermithrax16]

Well I was just gonna leave this one be but I happen to have nothing else to do tonight, so I'll give it a go.

 

First order of discussion: Masatsugu did not sign as Sadahide. Masatsugu is NOT Sadahide. This is documented in all meikan works (Sesko Shinshinto Meikan, Fujishiro, etc) as well as Markus Sesko's Japanese Swordsmiths A-Z. Darcy covers this as well in the very Yuhindo sword that was linked:

 

"Masahide before he died changed his name to Amahide, but after he died his son Sadahide chose to take up the name Masahide as the second generation head master of the school. Though he did not achieve the levels of skill of his father, he was an excellent swordsmith and ranked Jo-saku. Sadahide did not enjoy a long period of work under the name Masahide as he died within a year of his father's death, leaving his young son Kawabe Hokushi to inherit the school. Possibly because of the tragic early death of his father after changing his name to Masahide, the third generation Suishinshi master never took on the Masahide name but instead made swords as Masatsugu."

 

Family tree for clarity on the lineage: Masahide 1st ~~~~~ Sadahide, changed name to Masahide 2nd after death of 1st ~~~~~~~~ Masatsugu

 

Are there other references that ascribe Masatsugu as the same smith as Sadahide? 

 

Here is a mei comp drawn from the Yuhindo link, the Aoi confusing joint work link, and two examples from Sesko Shinshinto Meikan. Other references agree with the Sesko examples, but I am not snapping pics of books and all that tonight:

 

There is nothing similar for the NMB mei in question to the examples shown. I was not taught to count strokes etc, just to look and get a feel for the mei. I can see nothing remotely the same. There are other clues, but I am not going to give it all away right here. 

 

But as always, submit to shinsa and report back. In this study no one has every answer, always glad to be proven that I have overlooked something. Happens about every week.

 

 

 

 

[Jacques]

If i'm not wrong Sadahide (nidai Masahide) birth date is Kansei hachi nen (1796) so  he would have made the sword in question aged of 10 years only ? I'm very skeptical on it

[Ed]

Like I said please provide references to the information you are stating otherwise I don't mean to be rude but doesnt mean anything unless you have something to back up what you are saying. 

 

Well Jeremiah beat me to it, but there you go.  Hopefully you can see that your swords mei looks nothing like the shoshin examples.

 

Second it's completely rational to show you the mei of masatsugu because it's the same wordsmith his writing isn't going to change just because he is using a different name.

No, it is not.  They are NOT the same smith. 

[Yuradneprov]

Yes your right this is 2nd generation I was thinking it is 3rd generation. 2nd gen didn't sign as masatsugu. I'll have shinsha look at it and will update you. Still very confident this mei is legit.

[Jacques]

. Still very confident this mei is legit.

 

Atonishing, you can't read the mei and you are confident it's legit...

[Stephen]

Right JD...lol

[Tom Darling]

Totally out of the question, it's no generation of the Suishinshi Masahide school. IMO. Peace.

 

 

 

Tom D.

[Yuradneprov]

Nothing astonishing about it, you have your opinion I have mine. What's astonishing is how you don't see the similiarties in the script. After shinsha will update

[Jacques]

Nothing astonishing about it, you have your opinion I have mine. What's astonishing is how you don't see the similiarties in the script. After shinsha will update

 

Ok, ok, i think some here already know the result.