Rust Removed From Nakago = Failed Shinsa?

[bigjohnshea]

Gentlemen,

Hope you are all well.

Would a nihonto fail shinsa simply for having the rust removed from the nakago?

Cheers,

John

[Grey Doffin]

Hi John,

Not sure but best guess is it would be a large negative.  If a blade would have been borderline with the nakago intact it would be unpassable with a compromised nakago.  Maybe if the blade is otherwise spectacular and/or important it would pass.

Grey

[bigjohnshea]

I thought similarly Grey. Thanks.

Likely it would never get above a Hozon rating, or above a 75, but still could pass if it was otherwise a fine example.

Love to hear if anyone has any personal experience with this, or knows of any blades that have done this.

Thanks,

John

[loui]

Rust or patina?  Active rust is bad and needs to be stopped, removing the patina or natural aging is bad.  it would have to be re-aged.

[bigjohnshea]

Louis,

Yes I was referring to removing the patina.

So if the patina is removed for some foolish reason, and it is re-aged properly, does this still impact the potential for passing shinsa, or additionally, the value of the blade?

Thanks,

[Grey Doffin]

I would guess that a properly trained polisher could repatinate the nakago so well that only someone with extensive experience would know the difference.  Since shinsa panels are populated by people with extensive experience, you're back on the sliding scale I mentioned in my 1st post above.

As for value, something as major as a repatinated nakago can't help but affect it negatively.

Grey

[bigjohnshea]

Fine point there Grey.

 

I guess my mind keeps butting up against the idea that the condition of the nakago doesn't necessarily impact the quality of the workmanship in the rest of blade itself. It seems to me that even a blade which has unwisely lost its patina on the nakago, could still be "worthy of preservation" and therefor pass shinsa at the lowest level.

 

But I'm just speculating.

Thanks again.

[Stephen]

plenty of nakago out there that have been re patinaed...or is that patinated 

[cabowen]

If well done, it shouldn't be an issue at shinsa. Remember, owners with swords with fake signatures often are advised to have the signatures removed and to resubmit the blade. This requires repatination. It must be well done though or it looks terrible.

[Jean]

Even some Juyo nakago are repatinated, so ...

[bigjohnshea]

That's exactly what I was looking for Jean, thanks. So there are examples of it even at Juyo level.

 

Good to know.

[bigjohnshea]

Here's a bit of a follow up question.

Was there ever a time when stripping the nakago of its patina was considered favorable or necessary? For example, repurposing an ancestral blade for use in some alternative mounts? Perhaps requiring a modification of the dimensions of the nakago at the same time?

[Brian]

Nope.

 

Brian

[loui]

I've "repatinated" many nakago which have been stripped by knuckleheads, signatures removed, or from reshaping or shortening for various reasons, all had no issues at shinsa. None of it is favorable but necessary sometimes.

[bigjohnshea]

Thank you Louis, and everyone.  

Hope everybody is having a good weekend. 

Cheers.

[Toryu2020]

Repatinated not a problem - un-patinated a problem,

I would expect they would not paper it in that condition. If you wish to confirm the workmanship you would get a pink and see what attribution was given on the worksheet. Swords dont have to be in perfect polish but the jigane has to be visible. Rust/patination on the nakago is crucial to determining age, do you imagine they would paper a signed iron tsuba that had been stripped to bare metal?

 

I may be talking myself out of a commision here, but I would want to confirm with the team before submitting such a blade. Or expect a pink and hope for the confirmation of the workmanship,

-t

[Darcy]

Answer is already covered above...

 

More of a question for me is why someone would want to do it... like showing up to your wedding naked and covered with mud. Probably you could *still* get married like that but (a) why would you want to do it that way and (b) probably you won't get ideal results.

[loui]

Darcy, I see you were at my wedding, should have stopped by to introduce yourself:)

 

Cheers.

 

L

[harvg]

I attended my first shinsa in Chicago and submitted two mumei wakizashi's. One had a good deal of the rust removed from the nakago, and was also told it would never pass shinsa. Submitted it anyways (stubborn that way.....lol), and it passed with a rating of 70! Never understood why a shinsa panel would fail a sword for that reason? Yes, it definitely makes their job harder in determining age, but has nothing to do with the workmanship of the sword.

 

Harvg