Any experience w/ ebay seller 808jackiep in hawaii?

[kaigunair]

It was bound to happen, but I finally bought a sword from ebay I wish I had not. Seller goes by 808jackiep. He signs his messages and the package as E.A.McMurray. Located in Hilo Hawaii.

 

The blade I purchased had multiple problems that weren't disclosed, including two fukure (blisters), habaki bent/damaged to better fit the blade, loose fittings, etc. Even the one problem that was noted in the written description, a filled opening, was not shown very clearly in the pictures and much larger and poorly filled when I finally had the blade in person.

 

I contacted him with a description of the un-noted problems. The initial response was that "My ad described scratches and blemises, and also stated more pictures available on request.I did nothing to this artifact to alter it for the sake of selling it.It's also a 300-400 yr old used nihonto--they just don't sell in perfect condition for a $1000.00 dollars." I'm hoping future responses will be more reconciliatory, but.....

 

I know ebay is caveat emptor, and I could should have done a lot more to vet this blade before buying it, but I've been on ebay since 1999, have hundreds of feedback and I didn't think the better or worse of the seller. I guess I'm lucky that its taken this long for something like this to happen to me. But as you can tell, I'm pretty upset . Anyhow, before I leave negative feedback and try to escalate the claim, I thought I might ask to see if my experience is just an isolated one and if others have had more positive experiences with this seller. If there are more positive experiences, then I'll just leave a neutral and toned down feedback if we can't work things out.

 

Ok, thanks for letting me vent. I'm also already ready to take my lumps from the forum members....

[watsonmil]

Dear Junichi,

I have bought many fine Japanese Antiques via eBay excepting swords, ... BUT .. before I bid I make damn sure I have a written ( e-mail ) from the seller that should I not be satisfied ( with reason ) that I may return the item for a full refund less shipping. This is in no way perfect but it has worked for me. Having said this I do as LITTLE business anymore with eBay as possible. eBay is a TRAP for the collector of Nihonto or most any other type of antique and one is much better off dealing with reputable dealers listed on the Commercial Section of NMB than trying to find the treasure everyone else missed on eBay. Granted I have found treasures on eBay years ago, ... and only recently as well ... but only BECAUSE the item was poorly described or found under an incorrect category.

... Ron Watson

[Mark]

Did you pay with paypal? in my experience if you tell him it is not as described and want to return it, and he says no (should do it through eBay messages not direct email) you just open an ebay case and they will credit you, you need to return it with tracking. seems ebay usually sides with the buyer

[Jiro49]

Mark is 100% correct. Paypal sides with the buyer in every case. When I asked ,a manager at paypal about their policy the flat out said it wasn't fair to the seller..

 

Good luck..

[kaigunair]

Mark is 100% correct. Paypal sides with the buyer in every case. When I asked ,a manager at paypal about their policy the flat out said it wasn't fair to the seller..

 

Good luck..

 

Thanks Mark and Jiro49...makes one wonder why the seller would take such a tone if paypal is going to refund me anyway. I don't think I'm being unreasonable, having stated clearly the serious undisclosed problems. I will definitely pursue this to paypal if we can't resolve it in a civil manner. The end result is that he'll get a negative feedback from me, instead of a positive one saying "An honest seller who resolved a problem quickly. No worries here. A+++"

 

Ron, that's a good best practice and I will being using that for future purchases. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Mark]

i had about the same experience, had a seller say no return, etc. I just opened a case, within an hour i had a message from him and eBay, refund on the way. just make sure you document everything and communicate thru eBay message so they ca access it and see what has been said

[Gilles]

Hello;

 

The good part of it is that you have the Ebay buyer protection. You have to go on Ebay to the resolution center and answer to the questions. If the item was not strictly as described thus Ebay will give you a full refund. It takes quite a long time but you will get your money back and the seller will be in troubles towards Ebay. I had this experience a while ago, a "wise" seller sold me a yari with a fatal flaw that he hid all along the sale and the surprise was for me when I received it. he never answered to settle this problem. He is still on Ebay with a very low feedback rating which is a warning by itself.

[cuttingedge59]

Hi ,

Everyone is posting glowing reports of e-bays resolution system. Just thought i would post another perspective on e-bay /paypal based on my experience a few years back.

Like you brought a wakazashi of a seller and when I recieved it found it to be a total fake ,something he had managed to hide in his listing.Went back to the seller to try and return it and get my money back , he wouldn't have a bar of it . Raised a not as discribed complaint with e-bay. They requested I get documentation to support my claim which i did from a local collector of nihonto with 30yrs experience. Accepted his accessment but then requested a second document which i obtained from an antique dealer with a history of selling nihonto .

After all this declined my case and supported the seller

So as i payed with paypal I actioned a case of fraud with my card company and they retrieved a full refund for me

Left one pissed e-bay seller.

If nothing else resolves your situation you may consider a similar route, very satisfying beating the big guns :lol:

 

Chris ,

Nz

[kaigunair]

Thanks all. The seller hasn't responded since. I'll give him until tuesday to respond but if he says nothing, then I will begin the refund process with ebay along with negative and cautionary feedback....

 

Will update as necessary. Thanks.

[Dr Fox]

Junichi

 

So sorry for your troubles, and respect you posting the occurrence here. From your post, it is obvious that you are aware of the advice given here, about the extreme caution needed to deal with anyone, without having the item in hand. Your honesty in this case would hopefully advise others, but I am afraid yours, won't be the last case we hear of.

I sincerely hope you get a satisfactory resolution.

 

Denis.

[muromachiman]

Good luck with the return, similar case happened to me a few years back when I thought I was getting a great deal, as mentioned above its better to deal with a reputable dealer.

That being said if your getting something this cheap your guard should be already up, doesn't a polish cost more than what you paid for it?

[drbvac]

Serious problems with many sites on the net - not just e-bay. Bought a watch from a guy and when it got to me it was "sort of" as described but many changes and not as advertised. The problem I had was the guy had a return policy with a 20% re-stocking fee !!

 

Called Mastercard - sent all data from web site - photos and some other stuff and they just took the money out of his account .

 

I was surprised considering that the return fee was well posted but as the item was misrepresented -= it all worked out fine

[kaigunair]

thanks all. it is a wake up call for me.

 

Mike, yes, of course a polish would cost more than what I paid for and I expected that. Problem is that it has blisters which were undisclosed. These could open up during a polish. And the one flaw that was mentioned, an opening that was filled, was actually much larger than the pictures showed. Plus, it seems someone uneducated tried to do a rough polish on it. He knew all these things as his messages to me show. I was very interested in it because of the kamon on the habaki and its remote possible connection to my family. But even the habaki is damaged and ill fitting, which makes me wonder if this blade was a replacement by him.

 

Seller does not seem to be willing to deal with this in an honorable matter. He is knowledgable about nihonto, buying lots of blades himself and looking at his ebay profile pic. He would probably never try to sell this sword in person or at a sword show. He was probably trying to off load a bad blade using ebay. What ticks me off is that after writing to him and pointing out all the problems, his response is that "its old" or that "blemishes = blisters" and "scratches = previous bad polish", and that if I want a "good" sword, I should be ready to spend $6000 on one of the other blades that he has listed.

 

I wasn't expecting a sword in polish, but something that I could possibly restore that had the maru-ni ken katabami on it. This edward mcmurray in hilo hawaii seller is definitely someone I would steer clear of at this point.

[kaigunair]

Update: ebay stated that "the item you received matched the seller's description but you no longer wanted the item. eBay Buyer Protection doesn't cover situations where an item is accurately described."

 

Blah. How in the world do they get that it was "Accurately described"?

 

Will try my credit card directly now. And shop on ebay less...

[Brian]

My contact with any seller always includes the question "Are there any nicks, cracks, bends, pittings, flaws or other damage to the blade, and can you describe them in detail?"

You know you do have to bear some of the responsibility for this, but you admitted that. If a seller knows the terms for Nihonto, then I usually consider the blade to have some reason why the seller is dumping it (without reserve?) on eBay.

eBay is a game, like gambling. Sometimes you win, but not too often.

 

Brian

[Jean]

Morality: Don't buy Nihonto on ebay at a small price all the more if you are not an expert, you'll get cheated.

 

Now, all of you ebayers, why do you buy Nihonto on ebay as there are so many available at all prices at reputable dealers'on-line shops?

 

I have got the answer, you don't want to pay the price and hope to make a very very good deal/bargain hoping the seller does not know as much as you in Nihonto field. As was saying Brian, 95% of Nihonto listed is crap, the remaining 5% shall be sold at market price.

 

If you want to buy from an ebay seller, accept only the established ones with 100% of positive feedback having more than 100 deals and even then you can be surprised.

 

In Nihonto ebay game, at 95%, suckers are on the buyer side

 

Nihonto is big money bringing sharks /wolves waiting for fry/lambs.

 

At 99,99% you won't learn anything from a sword bought on e-bay. Spend rather your money going to Shows and holding the real thing. Furthermore, you could make a good deal.

[hybridfiat]

I fully concur with what Jean has said. Steer well clear of Ebay, there are NO bargains to be had. Plus there is the evils of shill bidding that skew prices.

Go to a dealer.

[Adrian]

After watching nihonto items on ebay for a few weeks I'm pretty sure that the only way for someone who's not an expert to get a real bargain is if a honest seller who knows absolutelly nothing about nihonto makes some big mistakes when listing the item. (such as 1. low buy it now on a genuine item in relativelly good condition or 2. listing the item in the wrong cathegory with little to no photos and a useless description) Even in this case one would need dumb luck in order to "score" as in first scenario you'd need to be the first person with some nihonto knowledge that sees the item and in the second scenario you'd need to be browsing the wrong cathegory, figure out that the item might be nihonto, get some photos from the seller and be the only one doing it.

And, in the end, even if you "score" you are just taking advantage of someone's ignorance and need for money.

 

However, the question is if you couldn't use all that time to make money and buy a good sword from a reputable seller. Or from a sword show, with an expert frind as a helper (or some similar scenario involving live auctions and so on). There may be bargain on ebay every now and then, but the time and effort invested in hunting them will probably be too much.

 

Personally I'd rather choose to be lucky with my life, family, health and generally speaking the things that really matter rather then scoring on ebay, winning at the lottery and so on.

[kaigunair]

Thanks all for the lumps, some better received than others.

 

FYI, it was a buy-it-now, and the price was around a grand. So I wasn't expecting anything special, but wasn't expecting the fatal flaws. Out of polish, rust, nicks, OK. Even a ww2 gendaito by an unknown smith would be better than this, even some showato. The blisters, replaced habaki, multiple openings = should have been disclosed; non-disclosure = not what I paid for; attitude of seller = dishonest. I was unfortunately drawn to this because it had a habaki with my family mon and thought it would make it possibly worth of preservation from a personal standpoint, not a financial one. The types of flaws present mean I won't even try with this one.

 

(my turn to ramble: )

 

If it wasn't for ebay, my other collection of specialized militaria would be non-existent or a fraction of the size and variety it was. Been watching the Japanese military section of ebay daily for over 10 years (not just a few weeks); not specifically looking for nihonto, but I have browsed may a nihonto post over the years. But I see now nihonto is a different story; many nihonto collectors use it to drop junk on an unsuspecting public. And the most wary listings to avoid are from people who collect nihonto. Unfortunately, like the public perception of car salesmen, the more this happens, the larger the risk that this type of thinking might unfairly transfer to even the true nihonto dealers. Maybe "german militaria dealers" is a better example than car salesmen. This would be truly unfortunate being what nihonto was supposed to represent in the first place as the "soul of the samurai" and a somewhat physical embodiment of the the code of bushido.

 

Lesson learned: assume any nihonto listing on ebay is suspect. double if its from a nihonto collector regardless of price, but especially if less than a few thousand dollars.

 

Ebay does have its place though.

 

A interesting point to me when speaking to many older collectors is that here in the states, they talk about starting off buying blades when these were going for less than a $100, maybe less than $10, or some family member gave them one. Well, 3 or 4 generations later, there are no hand-me-down swords, the good ones sold to collectors long ago. And there also aren't piles of swords at the local gun shows or flea market equivalents selling blades at that $10 price point (adjusted for inflation of course) to "introduce" people into this area of collecting. I look at the great nihonto collections of years past (been buying many a past auction catalogue and out-of-print book on a prominent turn-of-the-century collector's collection), and I envy the original prices they paid, even up to the 1960s and 70s.

 

Parting thought: So for all the looking down on "newbies" like myself who have bought on ebay, I think those who have been at this much longer might want to consider where they started, as I don't think most started off reading John Y's (or perhaps Joly/Arai's book) and doing countless hours of research before buying their first blade....

(that might make a interesting thread: "How did you come by your very first blade, who was president, and what did you pay?"....)

[paulb]

Dear Junichi

I will leave starting a new thread based on what and where was your first buy to somone else. But I would like to comment on a point you raised regarding the golden age of collecting. When I started in the 1980s I was told stories of being able to pick up long swords in the 50s and 60s for 30/- ($3) and "Harikiri knives" for £1 ($1.50) At the time when I was paying £250 for a Showato I thought the golden days were long gone and I would never reach the collection I aspired to. I still havent, but I have probably got a lot further than I expected. Today new collectors listen with envy when my contemporaries talk about their beginnings of buying swords for a couple of hundred pounds. The point I am trying to make is there was no golden age. Straight after the war trying to find a few pounds for something like a sword was almost impossible (I am told, I wasnt there). For me finding 2-300 a year to put to my hobby was equally tough. Beginners should not be put off by thinking they are too late. They just have to start and work towards a goal. Over time they can look back at their beginnings as "the golden age".

(BTW in terms of availability and information now is much more of a golden age than the last quarter of the the 20th century)

[Adrian]

Junichi, the seller's attitude was clearly dishonest, I think everyone agrees with that.

 

 

(my turn to ramble: )

 

If it wasn't for ebay, my other collection of specialized militaria would be non-existent or a fraction of the size and variety it was. Been watching the Japanese military section of ebay daily for over 10 years (not just a few weeks); not specifically looking for nihonto, but I have browsed may a nihonto post over the years. But I see now nihonto is a different story; many nihonto collectors use it to drop junk on an unsuspecting public. And the most wary listings to avoid are from people who collect nihonto. Unfortunately, like the public perception of car salesmen, the more this happens, the larger the risk that this type of thinking might unfairly transfer to even the true nihonto dealers. Maybe "german militaria dealers" is a better example than car salesmen. This would be truly unfortunate being what nihonto was supposed to represent in the first place as the "soul of the samurai" and a somewhat physical embodiment of the the code of bushido.

 

I think the problem lies in the particularities of nihonto colecting. Taking good photos of a Japanese blade seems to be an art in itself and it's very unlikelly that anyone but an experienced collector (or maybe a really good photographer) would manage to put on ebay images that could actually be used at spotting the flaws that the blade might have.

Even worse, as you have recently discovered, experienced but dishonest collectors that use ebay to unload crappy items seem to use generic caveats like "scratches and blemishes" in order to be covered when the buyer attempts to get his money back.

From what I gathered by reading your thread, as far as ebay is concerned, if the sword is genuine and the seller described it as having "scratches and blemishes" then a buyer has nothing to complain about. Maybe if it had a hagire that the seller failed to describe they would see things in a different light, but I doubt it.

 

However, there are other domains of antique/militaria/memorabilia collecting where ebay can be really useful. I don't think anyone disputes that.

 

 

 

Lesson learned: assume any nihonto listing on ebay is suspect. double if its from a nihonto collector regardless of price, but especially if less than a few thousand dollars.

 

I'll put it this way: ebay is a huge market and if an item is properly advertised (with good photos, listed in the correct categories, set up to run enough time and to end on saturday or sunday evening, the chances of getting a bargain are slim to none).

The reason why honest and knowlegeable colletors won't usually (there are exceptions) list their items on ebay are 1. the ebay and paypal fees 2. the (not so slim) chances of ending up with a dishonest/idiot buyer 3. the chances of things going horribly wrong if the buyer decides to return the item.

 

 

 

A interesting point to me when speaking to many older collectors is that here in the states, they talk about starting off buying blades when these were going for less than a $100, maybe less than $10, or some family member gave them one. Well, 3 or 4 generations later, there are no hand-me-down swords, the good ones sold to collectors long ago. And there also aren't piles of swords at the local gun shows or flea market equivalents selling blades at that $10 price point (adjusted for inflation of course) to "introduce" people into this area of collecting. I look at the great nihonto collections of years past (been buying many a past auction catalogue and out-of-print book on a prominent turn-of-the-century collector's collection), and I envy the original prices they paid, even up to the 1960s and 70s.

 

Parting thought: So for all the looking down on "newbies" like myself who have bought on ebay, I think those who have been at this much longer might want to consider where they started, as I don't think most started off reading John Y's (or perhaps Joly/Arai's book) and doing countless hours of research before buying their first blade....

(that might make a interesting thread: "How did you come by your very first blade, who was president, and what did you pay?"....)

 

Back in the late 80's when I was a kid and I started to collect coins, there was this old collector who kept telling me stories about how you could stay all day and choose roman denarii sold in huge piles at the flea market, back in the 50's. Picking up rare emperors, virtually uncirculated pieces and so on and paying next to nothing for them, you get the idea.

But hey, even for a kid there was something obviously fishy about this story, as his collection didn't looked like it was made by picking up the rarest and the finest. So, one day I asked him what happened with all those great pieces he probably bought back in the day? At this point he started to explain how he was happy if he could buy a coin per month, even at those insanelly cheap prices, as his pay was barelly enough to keep the family fed.

I guess this adds up nicelly with Paul's experience. The post-war years would have been a golden age for the average collector if he had today's money and was able to buy at those day's prices. :D

 

I won't say that there were no folks who happened to have money back in the 50's. But this is true in any age of turmoil, warfare, famine and so on.

[CSM101]

And here is just another reason why you have to hold in your hand what you want to buy.

 

Kano Natsuo: before/after

 

 

Uwe G.

[kaigunair]

And here is just another reason why you have to hold in your hand what you want to buy.

 

Kano Natsuo: before/after

 

 

Uwe G.

 

That is a lovely tsuba! But please forgive my misunderstanding, as I'm not sure I understand the relevance. Did you have this restored? Or are they two different tsubas? One looks iron and the other shakudo, so was the iron given a surface treatment? I would have gone after that in the first state if it showed up on ebay as the skill is very evident.

 

This tsuba deserves its own thread in the tosogu section!

[Kai-Gunto]

Ebay is a great place if You know what You are looking for.

 

Got a sakuto by O. Kanekuni for 89 usd on ebay.

[CSM101]

You have to see whatever you want to buy.

 

Photoshop, Elements or Gimp give you the possibilities to manipulate a photo in every way you want. And so this can happen with everything. Swords, tsubas ..you name it. When you see a photo like the next, then you know that someone used layers, masks, erazer. But what else?

 

I have seen photos from Japanese dealers where fatals flaws where hidden. But the right technique brought them back. And that with swords that were sold within 2 weeks with a price over 20.000 EUR.

 

Ebay and other platforms are 95 % a scam. You have to look at the photos and study them. And then you decide.

 

Uwe G.

 

PS: This is the same tsuba.

[kaigunair]

Ah, I understand now. The two tsuba pics were to demonstrate a photoshopped tsuba, correct?

 

Got it. I'm pretty sure the seller didn't go that far to doctor the photos posted on his listing. While I'm sure that happens a lot, I would see that as a much easier case to show ebay it was fraud. But good point nonetheless...

 

Thanks Uwe. (I hope you didn't end up buying that tsuba based on the photoshopped pic, but on iron it still a nice looking one to me...)

[Adrian]

I have seen photos from Japanese dealers where fatals flaws where hidden. But the right technique brought them back.

 

Uwe, can you elaborate a bit? I don't see how someone can bring back the image of a kizu if that area of the photo was selected, removed, then filled with small parts of other areas of the photo. But again I'm no photo editing expert .

[CSM101]

Morning,

 

so, one of the easiest things is to open a photo and make it invers. Now it looks like a negative. And here you can see if the hamon is gone. Or, if someone worked it over with brushes, deleted some parts, etc. The last one I saw was a Kagemitsu.

 

Another good filter is highpass. You can make details more visible. And if details don´t come out, then there aren´t any details left.

 

Then you have to look, if certain parts react later with color correction... There are many ways..

 

Greetings

 

 

Uwe G.

[Marius]

Uwe, I am overawed by your proficiency with Photoshop and other image editors. I would love to see some examples of how you have spotted flaws etc.

 

But allow me to remark that there is only one way, and it is much more efficient and time-consuming and which you have (indirectly) pointed out yourself:

 

Buy from trusted dealers only. Forget eBay, unless it is a trusted dealer who you buy from on eBay.

 

Honestly, I don't think you can spot flaws that have been edited out, regardless of what you do. The reason is simple - most pics on eBay are low resolution.

[CSM101]

There is a wonderful programm called photozoom pro. It is for photo enlargement without pixel. Very useful when you play CSI Wladiwostok.

 

But in the end you are right: only buy from a trusted source.

 

Uwe G.