Bruce Pennington

George, The temptation was in $$$. A blade made by a famous, respected smith would sell for more money than one made by an average or below average smith. So the down-and-out smith is tempted (and sometimes gave in) to fake the famous name on his work, selling it for more money than his own name would earn. The Japanese created the NTHK organization to try to inspect signatures for legitimacy.

That chart I mentioned. My copy/paste is working now, but when I try it, only the data transfers, not the chart lines. So here's a screenshot:

Chris, All occupied lands, both by Germany and Japan, "recruited" locals to fight for them. They forced business and factories to make things for them. Try looking up "PETA forces WWII". Here's a link that has a little info on them: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=171150

Didier, First, I want to make it clear - I don't believe yours is a fake. Mine likely is, but yours is not a fake. The plum blossoms on it are intentional and high quality work. The tsuba is made to resemble the Japanese style, but with differences that are intentional to set it apart for Chinese use, most likely the Chinese forces working for/with the Japanese. As to your latest example, it's clearly legit also, but Japanese made for a Japanese gunto. It's just another good example like John's above. This is becoming an interesting thread for collecting examples of the tsuba with round holes!

Excellent Dave, yes. That's who I was refering to. Other occupied/allied Asian groups made swords for their cooperating forces too, but the Chinese-made ones seem to be a higher quality and did a better job of replicating many of the fittings features of a Japanese gunto. These of course, throw us collectors for a loop today, because of all the fakery out there, but Didier's original tsuba in this thread strikes me as something made for Chinese collaborating troops.

The sale was cancelled. Your comment must have been taken seriously.

Ha! I saw this and thought "Wow, someone has a tsuba just like mine!" Then I realized it IS mine! First, Didier, I believe the flower on your tsuba is the Chinese plum of WWII. Which COULD mean these fittings were made for an officer in the Chinese military working for or with the Japanese. I have little to no knowledge of that aspect of the war, but I do know that such things were done. I've posted a picture of the plum blossom. John, it's interesting to see your tsuba with the rounded holes. The fine artwork of the cherry blossoms appear legit to me, as opposed to the poor imitation on mine. Yours looks legit, while mine looks like a really bad fake. In fact, the rest of the fittings on the "gunto" mine is on are equally horrific. The blade is lighter weight than normal and it's hamon looks like it was applied with a steel wire spinning brush. The nakago looks like it was melted with acid to hide the fact that it wasn't a Japanese blade. John's tsuba reminds me of the fact that fakers copy something that was original. So now I'm more convinced that mine was a fake rather than just a REALLY badly crafted gunto.

Fabulous Tom! That goes nicely with a Winter '38 N206 that I already have!

George, Don't know if you've learned any more on the Tan stamp, but I'd like to hear it if you have. Here are a couple of links I've seen with the stamp: Kanetada: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/12773-type-98-gunto-tan-stamped Kanekuni: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/28201-kai-gunto-signature-help-tan-stamped/ Amahide (fleabay) Fuller said the stamp means "forged", and general chatter on forums contend it is found on gendaito. I'd like to know if you've got something more definitive about this one.

Neil, You got it - Spring '43, Koa Isshin, "Ma 360" - and one I didn't have, thanks mate! If I can get my tablet to copy/paste, I'll post the chart showing the Nan, Ren, Ren/I, and Koa mix...

Easily confused with “tsuka”. Sometimes you can grab both sides of the tsuba and rock it back and forth. I’ve also tapped on both sides of the tsuba with a rubber mallet.

Thanks John! Looks like your hunch was correct. David, Ha! Yes, the dam is slowly getting cracks in it! It's been 73 freakin' years. It's time to open up and allow the appreciation of all beauty. All craftsmanship has it's value and beauty and should be appreciated (Ok, so one exception is the Airbus 380, it's just ugly).

Steve, just curious- have you seen a higher serial number than this?

Wow! Those leather items are hundreds of years old!?! A testament to the treatment products.

Hm. Another one of those dual-holed tsuba - a square for a latch, and a round for a leather retention strap! And the hexagonal shaped saya! That's quite an item you've got there Dave.

Do I recall that there were a rare few leather covered saya in the "old" days, but not the norm? Regardless, the leather on the tanto you mention is obviously new, as in WWII, though, which was a norm for refitting blades for the war. Seems like I saw a photo recently of a trooper with a leather covered tanto slung on his gear.

The blade looks legit. I've balked on "writing" of this style because it looks like something etched on with a hot iron. I've seen this style before and guys at the time said it's completely legit method of marking blades. I'd love to hear DaveR's thoughts on the koshirae. It looks like it spent some time in occupied lands and was refitted by locals. The date is interesting as the "new" style was reintroduced in '34 right? So this is quite an early blade for a shingunto. I like it. Dave, you there?

Dan, You're right about the saya, it's mis-matched. The handles are copper, not brass, and this one looks good. The blade has no inspector stamp, but it's seems I've come across that before, and as no one really knows the final serial number of the last copper handled 95 made, this one must be pretty darn close, so would be a great collector item. Waiting for Steve or Stegel or Stu's thoughts.

Thanks Neil. Not that they're wrong, either. The issue I tried to narrow down with Nick was that the order he found directing the Gunzoku to use the all-brown tassel just says they are to use it. But, where did it come from? Was it already in use by the IJA, and the Gunzoku were just added to the list of users? Or did this directive create a heretofore unheard of all-brown tassel? The order doesn't create a tassel, it simply tells uniformed civilians to use one. His answer was that there was no mention of an all-brown tassel in IJA uniform regulations prior to the 1940 revision. While I'm aware that it's impossible to prove, with evidence, that something DOESN'T exist, I don't feel that simply using uniform regulations is full proof. It would take the orders/specs from the govt to the contracting community directing the production of the all-brown tassel (and the date it happened) to actually nail this one down. So, to me, it's still possible that IJA officers, or in your example, late-war NCOs, were using these as well. But until we get some documentation to prove one way or the other, we're still dealing in possibilities.

Neil, I'm curious about your source on this. It's my understanding that the all brown was used by the uniformed civilian corps (Gunzuko, I believe), so an NCO or Lance Corporal equivalent might have carried that arrangement if I understand the latest on these correctly. Discussed here: http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/what-were-regulations-army-civilian-employees-carry-swords-701783/

Interesting Neil. Do those pins or rivets in the kabutogane go all the way through?

Thanks John. We’re anxious to hear what Chris finds out.

No, only upgrades. So you must be seeing higher quality Type 3’s, eh?

I have read that carrying swords on the airplane was discouraged, some guys did it anyway though.

I’ve never read or heard a reason. They do appear most often on blades that are high-quality gendaito. Usually star stamped RJT blades .