Bruce Pennington

This discussion could go on the Arsenal Stamps thread, since it's strayed considerably from the titled topic, but there are some collectors that are quite interested in koshirae, so I think it deserves it's own thread. There are a number of blades that have alpha-numeric numbers stamped on the end of the nakago, and I've started this thread to document the practice, and where possible, identify the reasons for it. Posts by Ray Singer and Chris (Vajo) on the "Show Us Your High Class Gunto" thread (http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/18610-show-us-your-high-class-gunto/page-7) have revealed two gendaito made by two different smiths that are fitted with near identical, high-quality fittings, and both are stamped with numbers of similar style on the same location of the nakago. I've also recently come across a Mantetsu stamped in a similar way with a number that matches the numbers stamped on the tsuba and seppa. The fittings are high quality, though not the top-quality of Ray's and Chris' examples. The 3 indicate that the numbers on the blades were put there by the koshirae manufacturer/fitter and not by the smith. Ray's: Chris': Mantetsu:

Chris, Does your nakago have a number stamped at the end of it like Rays? I came across a Mantetsu with a number stamped on it like this and the number matched the number on the fittings, as if it was the koshirae maker that fitted out the blade who put the stamp on the nakago.

Ofek, Terminology in our collecting world is a bit of a mash-up. "Kyu-gunto" simply means "Old army sword" where "Shingunto" means "New army sword."! So using the terms of WWII, anything prior to the shingunto is a kyugunto. Dawson called the 2-ring 1875 version a Type 8; and the single-ring 1886 version a Type 19. So this one is the Type 19, kyugunto. Pics don't show the backstrap well, but it appears to be company grade.

Dan, I'd heard of this show for a couple of years, yet never watched it. I'm watching it now. So far quite enjoyable, thanks for sharing. I've enjoyed the healing aspect of such acts. Like the V.N. Air Force pilots that have gone back and met V.N. pilots and their families and have become dear friends.

Tom, Good call on not forcing it off. I have a Koto era blade with a fat nakago. The fitters actually put the nakago on wide and tapped it down once in place to snug it up. It won’t come off now, either.

It is a good reminder (especially for guys like me!). Quite a beautiful blade! These older blades continue to amaze me that they maintain their shine and beauty for hundreds of years.

Neil, my thinking too. And we all face this in this hobby. If the OP was selling, then his story would easily fall into that category - trust the blade, not the story. But if he's just a guy with his dad's sword, and wants to learn about it, I would give him the benefit of the doubt. In the end, only the sword knows!!! Ha!

I love it!!! Ha! And using the Japanese practice of creating a shorter name, taking the first syllable and last, combined .... we have ni-to! neeto, get it?!

Ok, Tom, we'll wait for your pics. I'll say up front, I'm no nihonto expert, nor a age/era one either. But look at the cross-section of this hole. That rust layer is THICK. The 3 holes on an old blade simply tell that it was refitted that many times over it's life, which is not unusual. That one offset is really odd, but the strange reshaping of the nakago may go along with that part of the story. Odd though. Tom - on the barrel screw, the picture you showed is the male side. It should screw into the female side of the other half on the other side of the kabutogane. Is there another half? On the green stuff, is it rust, or glue of some sort? I use a steel sanding sponge. It looks like a plastic sponge, but it's made to sand steel. You can very carefully work the specific area of the green stuff. When you put it back together, the order is simply dictated by size. The larger pieces are against the tsuba, and size down as you go, on both sides. I would keep the leather one because it goes with the saya. I wouldn't be bothered by the mismatch. Like someone said above, things get loose over time, and whether on the battlefield or post-war, seppa get added to tighten the fit. I've added some to a couple of mine that were missing seppa. I've got some spares I could mail you, if you like. Use what fits, then mail the rest back to me. PM me if you want to try it. These family blades were donated and/or bought by the thousands throughout the war. Newpaper articles went out to the public asking for donated swords. Govt orders were sent out specifying size and pricing. It doesn't surprise me that some may not get a high-quality refit for the war. There are many gunto circulating today, that have been thrown together by a collector or seller. And like Dave said, some G.I.s grabbed blades w/o saya, and searched until they found a saya that fit well enough. But, bearing in mind your father's story, I see no other explanation than poor war-refit, or battlefield repair.

DON’T clean the rust off the nakago. It’s one of the primary ways of judging age. I’d clean the green stuff off the tsuba, but be careful to only affect the green. I found out the hard way that the tsuba and seppa have colorations that come off very easily. You don’t want to lose that. I think there probably was some kanji where the end if the nakago is, but has been cut off when the nakago was shortened. Cool blade and agree with John, quite old.

Nice move, Tom! Now we wait!

Quite peculiar! Two options: 1. Grab the tsuba on both sides with both hands and rock the tsuba . I have dislodged stuck tsukas that way. 2. The barrel screw at the top unscrews. If it is through a hole in the nakago, removing it will free the tsuka. You will have to bend the sarute enough to get it off first. To have a hole that high is unusual for this type blade, common in Type 3, or contengency, blades. I would try it though.

Quite peculiar! Two options: 1. Grab the tsuba on both sides with both hands and rock the tsuba . I have dislodged stuck tsukas that way. 2. The barrel screw at the top unscrews. If it is through a hole in the nakago, removing it will free the tsuka. You will have to bend the sarute enough to get it off first. To have a hole that high is unusual for this type blade, common in Type 3, or contengency, blades. I would try it though.

Tom, Sometimes it’s necessary to grab the peg with pliers and pull it out. I have one that is that way. The wrap may be blocking its exit on the other side, or the holes in the tsuka and nakago aren’t aligned perfectly and the peg sits at an angle.

Alamo, Forum rules (plus we all like talking real people!) - go to your settings and put in a first name, or sign a name at the end of each post, thanks! Type 98 Japanese officer's sword in combat saya (scabbard). The combat saya often means there is an older blade in there. No way to know until you take out that bamboo peg holding the tsuka on the blade. Once that is pushed out, the handle and tsuba/seppa will all come off. Then you can get some good pics of the nakago (tang), blade pointed up. The fittings are nice, so there might be something cool under that tsuka!

Dave, I've never heard - how do you pin the age of a leather cover?

Yeah, I think that's called "Bubba-ayasugi"!

Dawson, Fuller, and Ohmura all refer to the "Mukden" or "Nan-man" arsenal. Located 10 miles north of the city, they also call it the South Manchurian Arsenal (not to be confused with the South Manchurian Railway Factory). Dawson says they made swords, but didn't know of what nature. Fuller says they used the "Nan" stamp. Ohmura associates both the Nan and Ren stamps with them, and believes they were involved with Mantetsu blades. None of them refer to the circled Mukden stamp seen on firearms and baynets, although Fuller shows the stamp in his chart, saying not all the stamps in the chart are seen on blades. This COULD be a post-war Bubba-job, as proposed by someone on Warrelics. It's dated and signed ('44 Kanesada), with no stamps on the nakago, so I can't imagine WHY a Bubba would create his own stamp and put it on the blade; although the Bubba's of the world have done some inconceivable things!

Came across this thread from 2016, on NMB (http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic...-quality-help/) with a stamp on the blade resembling the Mukden stamp found on firearms and bayonets, but it's not what I'm used to seeing. Anyone see this as a Mukden stamp, or is it something else? This is what the Mukden stamp looks like on firearms

I recall there are a few new guys starting their collections, and there are some who specifically collect Type 3 Contengency models, so I wanted to get the word to our group before it goes to a fleabay buyer. It's a 1945 Sukekuni, great condition. I've got pics on the For Sale forum: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/28784-type-3-44-model-contengency-model-excellent-condition/ I don't normally sell my gunto, but this is for the Mrs for Mother's Day, so not much room for negotiation! {Brian (or Admin) if it's inappropriate to notify guys this way, on this forum, I understand, and will understand if you delete.}

Wow, that was originally one seriously long nakago! Agree with John on the saya. Ohmura has one the same color. I love the seppa. Wonder if they came from the "civilian" fittings?

Final installment on terms from Nick: "To a normal Japanese person, Nihonto 日本刀 simply means Japanese-style sword, in comparison to Yoto 洋刀 or Western-style sabers. But sword collectors developed the additional words you mentioned as collector jargon and then for gun and sword control laws a separate legal definition became necessary in connection with what constitutes artistic value. So meanings will change depending on whether you are talking with a layman, collector or lawyer, but Nihonto has the first meaning in 99% of the cases." So, it boils down to simply getting the group we converse with regularly to agree on terms. They, as all words, are created to convey an idea. They simplify. Instead of saying "I just bought my first Japanese sword made with tamahagane without any hydraulic hammers" we can say "I just bought my first nihonto" etc.

A follow-up from Nick: "Kyugunto" and "Shingunto" are not historical terms. Throughout Japanese military history, any outdated military sword was called a Kyugunto and the latest model a Shingunto. Thus the Type 32 was also naturally referred to as "Shingunto (new model sword)" when that was the current model. So what specific model you are referring to is all a matter of where you want to freeze the picture in the flow of time. Those using that lingo have decided to pin themselves down to 1945 and by doing so lose relevance to the modern day perspective and language. Current Japanese refers to Japan's WW2 military in its entirety as "Kyugun", so for a normal Japanese speaker all swords belonging to the IJA and IJN are "Kyugunto". I'm checking with him for clarity on Nihonto, Gendaito, and Showato.

Here’s the official word from Nick Komiya, Warrelics: “No, Gunto means "Military Sword" and refers to its whole structure "Lock, stock and barrel" so to speak. An Army sword is Rikugunto and by the same principle, a Navy Sword is Kaigunto. If you wanted to say "Military sword fittings" you would have to say either "Gunto no Gaisou" or "Gunto no Koshirae". Defining gunto as a "sword in military fittings" is also acceptable, but not really to the point.”

There are separate words for the blades in military fittings - nihonto, gendaito, showato - and these words apply regardless of the koshirae they are fitted out with. A family sword, whether 100 years old or 500, once bought buy or donated to the war department became a military possession, therefore an army sword or navy sword. A nihonto in military fittings is a gunto or kaigunto as is a showato in the same fittings. They have become war swords owned by the government - gunto.