Steve Waszak

You guys have lost me. No idea what you're talking about...

Well, I will say that Juko's quote begs the question of what counts as "excessive concern." One person's "excess" is another's "just right," and again we are brought around to matters of taste and judgment. As to the matter of balance, the idea of harmony between the two "extremes" manifesting in particular objects is an interesting one to contemplate. Balance needn't always be a 50-50 thing, especially in the Japanese sensibility of things. I might see "balance" as better reflected via the term/idea of tempering, of taking the "excess" or extreme edge off of one aesthetic and/or the other. Returning to the original topic of wabi and sabi in tsuba, some Nobuie guards might be seen as a good manifestation of this balance/harmony, with more weight, perhaps, given to the wabi side than the other.

Could you elaborate, Pete? I'm not quite following...

Thanks, Henry, for this link. Completely missed it in your earlier post. I'll have to pick up a copy if I can find one! I am very curious indeed to know more about this Juko quote.

I honestly think (and have thought for some time), that the linked term "wabi-sabi" was a post-Edo creation, perhaps even of far more recent vintage than that (i.e. Post-WW2). One of the reasons I believe so, as my initial post in this thread nearly a year ago states, is that wabi and sabi are but two of many terms conveying particular aesthetic principles. As such, and since wabi may combine with one or more of any number of these others, as could sabi, there would be no specific reason to tie wabi and sabi together in some some fixed way. Not, at any rate, at the time they were in fluid use with regard to Tea (Momoyama and early-Edo Japan). I would be quite intrigued (and frankly, surprised) were there to be uncovered some written work from the period that actually used these terms in this joined manner. Henry, you observe in your post that, "...for Juko, excessive concern with the imperfections and rustic aesthetic of Japanese utensils was as bad as a preoccupation with the regular forms and perfect glazes of Chinese ceramics, so a merging of the two different attitudes was necessary to keep a balance." I'm not sure what your source is for this idea (the youtube video doesn't say this, does it?), but it seems quite dubious to me. The reason is that in Juko's time, the rustic aesthetic you speak of hadn't yet become established in Tea, at least not among the Buke. That doesn't occur for nearly another one hundred years, in the latter 30 years (plus or minus) of the 16th Century. I would be very interested to know the deeper source for the idea that Juko expressed such an opinion (unless he was speaking of himself in saying this... ). For much more on this subject area, besides the book I recommended in my original post in this thread (A Tractate on Japanese Aesthetics, by Donald Richie), I would also highly recommend Japanese Tea Culture, edited by Morgan Pitelka. I remain convinced, incidentally, that any pursuit of a deeper understanding of and appreciation for higher-level Momoyama and early-Edo steel tsuba is nearly fatally hampered by the lack of an equal pursuit of understanding the Tea Culture (and all of its many aesthetic principles and terms) that was so ascendant in those times.

Thanks, everyone. But yes, to clarify, I was referring specifically to the "wabi-sabi" joined pairing. I recognize that these terms go way back as references to certain aesthetic principles and sensibilities, individually. It's the trite "cuteness" of "wabi-sabi" that has me dubious about early (i.e. Edo Period or before) uses. Thanks again, all. Cheers, Steve

Hi Henry, Yes, I would agree with just about all you say here. The only part I'm not so sure about is when you say that "...[the] late Muromachi to Early Edo Period is key only in that it made wabi sabi 'main stream' and accessible to most people outside an elite group." I realize that you have "main stream" in quotes, but I would just want to emphasize that mainstream here may still have a fairly limited context. I don't believe that the esoteric aesthetic principles (including wabi and sabi) informing the Tea Culture of the roughly 100 years you're referencing had much currency (never mind fluency) among the lower classes. I rather doubt that farmers and low-level artisans and merchants would have had much exposure to and teaching in such principles, of which sabi and wabi are but two of many. So the mainstream I would take your statement to be describing would be more likely to be mid-level bushi, maybe even some lower-level bushi, along with those merchants who had amassed enough wealth to get to "play" in the upper-echelon circles (e.g. Sen no Rikyu). Since the understanding and mastery of these principles, especially as applied to Tea, would have been a mark of one's learning, taste, and of course, station in life, it would seem reasonable to see there being an effort to some degree to keep them as privileges of the upper classes. An area that would be useful to research in the context of this discussion is that of forms of (esoteric) Buddhism and whether and to what degree these found their way down into the lower classes (and if so, how they may have manifested). In a culture as rank-happy as Japan's, it seems probable that esoterica -- including such aesthetic principles as sabi, Yuugen, Shibusa, mono-no-aware, wabi, etc... -- would have been at least somewhat guarded/protected by the upper classes at least partially to reaffirm and reinforce their (legitimate) privileged status. Cheers, Steve P.S. Does anyone know what the first recorded (and verified) use of the term "wabi-sabi" is? Somehow, I find the cuteness of the rhyming aspect suspect, and I can't help wondering if it isn't in fact of relatively recent vintage (that is, not actually in use in the period we're discussing...).

Hi guys, My view is that Robert's thoughts about this piece being a later Yamakichibei-style tsuba are correct. The mei is not right for any of the early Yamakichibei masters (there are several ways in which it departs from those of the early smiths), and the tsuba's metal appears to differ markedly from that of any of the Momoyama/early-Edo tsubako. The sugata and general form of the piece is also quite upright and rather stiff, lacking the more "organic fluidity" of actual early works. Having said this, it isn't a bad tsuba for what it is: a 19th-century "homage" to the early Yamakichibei artisans, employing one of their classic motifs. Cheers, Steve

Great. Many thanks.

Thanks, John. Do you happen to know the title of this photography book?

Where does one purchase the book/catalogue?

Number 6, the Saotome, for sure.

Thanks for posting, BaZZa. Very interesting...

This tsuba. Yamasaka Kichibei. I've never seen another tsuba that has a greater degree of haki (vitality) than this.

Important to recognize that for early iron, the criteria you present here, Chris --- precision of carving, quality of composition, thematic innovation --- may occupy a second tier after (or at least must make a lot of room for) such considerations as the quality of the forging, skill in hammering, deftness in use of yakite and/or tekkotsu (if present), and the patina/color of the metal. If these are weak in a given iron tsuba, the criteria you mention won't matter so much.

Yes, Owari. Looks like some beautiful metal, with great color. Early 17th-century would be my guess. Nice pick-up, Kyle

Mitsutada... Nice! Thanks for the photos, Uwe.

Another intriguing aspect to the design of the motif is the placement of the two types of crest: the "manji-bishi" mon are nearly all centered around the seppa-dai, while the kiri mon are placed along the perimeter of the face of the guard, essentially ringing the manji mon. I have no idea whether this arrangement would mean anything for sure, but it seems rather likely to me that some sort of semiotic impact is intended here. Others will probably have a much better idea than me...

Hello Jose, An intriguing tsuba. I appreciate your approach and reasoning to try to pin down the time this guard may date to, but I wonder if it is based on a small error. The Toyotomi paulownia crest (kiri mon) presents with a more complex grouping of blossoms than the usual kiri mon does. We most often see a paulownia crest depicted with three groupings of blossoms -- a group of three, a group of five in the center, and another group of three. This is how the kiri crest on your tsuba is rendered. But the Toyotomi kiri mon presents with a group of five blossoms, then a group of seven blossoms in the center, and then another group of five. The extra set of blossoms may be meant to suggest the resplendent magnificence of Hideyoshi. So, if you are correct that there would have been much sensitivity in the period to how crests were depicted/presented as well as who was allowed to use crests and in what manner, I question whether your tsuba would have direct association with the Toyotomi. However, the combination of crests we see on your tsuba is certainly interesting, and it does seem plausible that it points to clan connections/political associations of some sort. It may even be the case, as you suggest, that the kiri mon here does point to Toyotomi, despite the "lesser" rendering of the blossoms in the crest. In any event, I believe your placing of the tsuba in the later Momoyama Period is a good one. The "scattered" presentation of the crests on the plate points to a Momoyama sensibility. I have seen other Momoyama tsuba which feature crests in such a manner. I've attached an image (third photo) of a tsuba that is supposed to have been used by Oda Nobunaga. The motif is the Eiraku Tsuho coin famously associated with Nobunaga. The way the coins are "randomly" placed on the surface reminds me a bit of the placement of the crests on your tsuba. Also attached are a few images of a Nobuie tsuba from the Momoyama Period. The motif here is also crests, including a kiri mon at the top on the omote, flanked on either side by chrysanthemum crests (kiku mon). As the kiri mon is connected to the Toyotomi, the kiku mon is the crest of the imperial family. These crests presented in this manner -- with the kiri mon at the top -- may be meant to point to Hideyoshi's de facto power in the 1590s, which is when this tsuba was made, I believe. Nobuie was an Owari tsubako working for Oda Nobunaga at first; he may have then been employed by Hideyoshi after Oda's demise. Both Nobunaga and Hideyoshi were Owari men. Cheers, Steve

Chris, You mention that your tsuba here has a rim that is less than 3mm thick. This detail really stood out to me. I cannot recall ever having seen a genuine early Owari sukashi or Kanayama tsuba with a rim under 4mm, and 5mm, I believe is more typical (even thicker are not uncommon). I have a Momoyama Period Owari/Kanayama whose rim is 8mm in thickness (see photos). Going through the Sasano books (which include quite a few Owari and Kanayama tsuba), I cannot find a single example with a rim as thin as that on your piece. Would anyone be able to offer an example or two of an early Owari/Kanayama sword guard whose rim is under 4mm? Cheers, Steve

I'd never heard this word used as a noun this way. Thanks for that. I do believe that acids for use in etching in Europe did reach Japan in the second half of the 16th century, yes (good information on Jehan le Begue!). As the Shodai Hoan is known/thought to have died in 1613, and his employing of the yakite-kusarashi treatment/effect is something he's famous for, we may surmise that he could have been introduced to European acids or acid treatments. The Japanese could have seen etched European breastplates, for instance, and inquired about how that was done. Certainly there was an enormous influx of European material and ideas in Momoyama Japan. Or as you say, perhaps the Japanese had their own methods (vinegar?). Since there is so little if any information about methods and techniques used by tsubako then, as you note, too, it's hard to do more than speculate at this point...

Thanks, John. I certainly wouldn't describe this as Kamakura-bori. Acid etching at work in this tsuba. Sorry, but I couldn't quite grasp what you meant be "fancies" in your post here... Cheers, Steve

John, Might you have an image of the ura of that tsuba? I would agree with Pete that the plate look less like Kamakura-bori than something Hoan-esque. Cheers, Steve

Nicely done, Ford. Cheers, Steve

I am so, so sorry, Jean. I have experienced this more than once. It's hard to imagine what could feel worse. My deepest condolences, Jean. Steve