paulb

still think it is later, but it wouldnt be the first time I was wrong and certainly not the last. It just doesnt look old (i.e 5-600 years old)

I think the "heavy in hand concept" is a bit mislleading. I have held a number of late kamakura blades which were substantial. All were nearer to 8 mm thick and very heavy. the cynic in me thinks the lightness associated with koto blades is simply that thy have been polished down over a longer period of time. James I can understand your point of view but dont you think it appears a bit long (especially the nakago) for kanbun?

Hi I dont think it is that early, in fact I would suggest at first view it is much later. do you have an image looking down on to the border of the nakago and blade so we can see the difference in thickness? Based on what can be seen so far the relative plainness of the hada and the bright tight nioiguchi suggest late Edo to me but that is more of a feeling than anything else.

Karl I am at risk of sounding cynical (which I know I am) but I do truly admire your attention to detail and objective approach. I have two concerns with what you are doing 1. You seem to insist on presenting your opinions, all be they well researched and supported (at least in your view) as statements of fact. And appear to believe that your two years of very studious web research carries more weight than generations of scholars who have gone before you studying work in hand. There is a very thin line between appearing confident and incredibly arrogant. This can seriously jeopardise the information you appear to be presenting 2. You mention you have spent two years studying everything on the net and have seen 3 Tadayoshi blades (in hand or on the net?) Think how much more validity your opinions would carry if you had spent some of that time studying swords in hand. I am not saying you are wrong, I am nowhere near qualified to do so, but equally I think a slightly more humble approach might further your views more effectively. I will leave it to the more up to date Hizen collectors than I am to comment more specifically on the points you raise.

Caleb Your question opens a vast subject which sword scholars have debated more or less since the study of swords began. Firstly you must remember that the idea of 5 traditions, The Gokaden, is a relatively new concept aimed at putting order in to research and study. A simplistic overview 1. Early manufacture was carried out in Yamato (mainly for temples) Yamashiro (for Nobility) and Bizen for everyone. The emperor Gotoba brought together those considered the best to help him learn about sword making in the 13th century. Two of those smiths, one from Yamashiro Awataguchi and one from Bizen were then ordered to Kamakura by the incumbent Shogun and formed the beginnings of Soshu work. Later a Yamato Tegai Smith Kaneuji studied in Sagami (Soshu) and then went off to form the Mino school. 2. Movement of smiths was very frequent and between traditions (which did not formerly exist) so you see many different influences coming together in different schools 3. More specifically in answer to your question. For a long time and maybe it still is there has been a debate as to whether Awataguchi Kunimitsu and Shintogo Kunimitsu were one or two smiths. Awataguchi Kunimitsu was the son of Norikuni and either father or brother of perhaps the greatest maker of tanto Awataguchi Yoshimitsu. Shintogo Kunimitsu was contemporary to Yoshimitsu and his work has a great deal of Awataguchi influence. Compared to later Soshu work it is very subtle and quiet and the quality of the jigane is superb. If it is the same man then it meant he moved from Kyoto to kamaukura fairly late in life and had a very long working life. He also changed his work style late in life. More likely he was another perosn (possibly related) whose work was founded in the Awataguchi tradition. 4. Does it matter? well from a quality point of view not much, the work of both smiths is about as good as you can get. Where it is interesting is when trying to understand the development and changes within manufacture during this formative period. In the early days of Soshu there was a lot of similarity between their work and Awataguchi (not Rai) As the school developed the hada became more prominent, losing the very tight ko-itame and becoming a combination of itame and nagare. In addition forging at higher temperatures created larger and more prolific nie. The work became altogether more exuberant. If you look at very early work from Kyushu from Yamashiro (Munchika) and ko-Bizen (Tomonari) ko-Senjuin etc you will see very little difference in shape structure and hamon, there are differences but they are more to do with colur of steel than forging features. characterisitc features developed as schools matured.

I believe Awataguchi jigane is as good as it gets and fully agree that it offers a very serene and beautful result. However I also long ago gave up the idea of having having a favourite or defining the best as I keep seeing new examples of other work which are as appealing and just different. That is a great place to be because you can start to appreciate work for what it is rather than who made it. My overiding personal criteria is that it should look "natural" and spontaneous. I prefer it to be small scale and tight (hence the Yamashiro preference) and to have a lot of activity in the form of ji-nie and chickei. However that doesnt stop me lusting after work with very different attributes Below images of two masterworks produced at around the same time and in the same country. Totally different in technique and end result. Who would dare say which was "Better"?

cant tell you the year but the main characters name gives you the day and month.

Thank you Roger reading your post took me back to discussions long ago sitting on your houseboat in HK and drinking (far too much) beer. I am still living down that experience at home (rule to oneself NEVER is it a good idea to call your wife from the other side of the world when you are sitting on a ferry in Hong Kong harbour and have been socialising with Robertshaw for more than 12 hours )

Hi Roger Thank you for the detailed post it is always good to hear from you and to gain from your experience. Also glad I am not the only one passing boring hours at airports trawling the board take care Paul

Dear KarlPeter Thank you for the clarification. I admire your focus and attention to minute detail all of which are important in trying to support attribution. Please keep us updated with your progress Regards Paul

Dear Karl Peter I dont know the sword you are referring to. I admire your confidence and I think Roger would acknowledge that as research continues it may be that some of his views published some 15 years ago may prove to be wrong. However he has devoted a large part of his adult life to the study of main line Tadayoshi work so I dont think his work can be discarded lightly. If you are going to make such claims you really do need to support them with evidence. If you do this I am sure no-one would begrudge you your smug moment! I look forward to reading your thoughts Regards Paul

While mentioning the two gentlemen, I have sold pieces to both it the past and as buyers they are equally easy to work with when buying. All told a good experience.

Hi Jim Personal opinion is that utsuri is another form of nioi (unless it is nie utsuri in which case it is another varaiation of nie ) but chemically it is t he same material. I think by definintion Shirrake utsuri is random. One reason it is not regarded so highly as midare or bo-utsuri is that no one is sure whether it is intentional or accidental. The relative fineness or clarity can be a result of how much was created in the process and also how it has been polished. We can on occasion attempt to over analyse such features. I remember seeing a particular linear feature on a tanto in Japan which looked unusual. I created all sorts of explanations in my mind and then asked the dealer who owned it what it was. He looked at me with a puzzled expression and said "It's Nie"

Hi Jim only ones I have seen have had shirrake utsuri (that is if they have any at all) I have never seen nie utsuri in a mihara blade but then again I havent seen that many. I have always thought of shirrake as an irregular and ill-defined mistiness much as Mark describes in his post. Regards Paul

I agree with Grey's original post. I am a little perplexed by the perception or statement that something is "over priced". In this as in any other antique or second hand market there is no correct price. The only governing factor is if anyone is willing to pay what is being asked. We have covered this many times before. If someone buys something for £10 today but feels its worth 100 tomorrow there is no reason that they shouldn't put it up for sale at that price. Provided they offer an honest appraisal of what it is, the good and the bad about it and answer any questions then I dont see that they are doing anything wrong. It is for potential buyers to decide if the article is at an acceptable price to them and represents good value. If they are in doubt they can also seek other opinions before committing themselves. Every auction house in the world has numerous buyers dong exactly this, buying at one price and then reselling via a shop or website at a profit. Thats how they survive. No one is forcing any body to buy anything here and the only determination of price and value is if it is bought and the buyer is satisfied with their purchase.

it has often said that konuka hada was an attempt to reproduce Rai-hada and Enju hada which followed straight after Nashiji so they have much in common. Someone much wiser than me once said the skill levels were as high but the material was different, andf I think there may be a lot of truth in this observation, after all these people were serving long apprenticeships and working under direction for many years so their technique should be comaparable. The Awataguchi smiths were producing blades for the top levels of society and therefore had access to the best materials. Likewise the Nabashima were using top line Hizen work as diplomatic gifts so made sure they used good steel. Before going in to this phase of interest I was totally besotted with Konuka hada and would still like to have a good example of a Hizen blade again some day. I still think it ranks close to the top of shinto wormanship alongside good Osaka work.

Hi Alex The image in the book are a lot better than my efforts but it is a sword by the same smith. The one I photographed is almost identical sugata, except it had bo-hi and was suriage. I have attached my images below as a reminder and those with the book can compare.

Received mine yesterday and as said in an earlier post I think it is a beautful piece of work and Ppaul did a great job on the translation. I couldn't understand why they had published it with such flimsy covers but then thinking about it I guess it was the only way they could reasonably accomidate the fold-out pages. all in all a super visual reference guaranteed to make us mortals green with envy!

Yesterday I received my copy of the book translated by Paul Martin (As always he has done an excellent job, thank you Paul) I am at a little bit of a loss regarding the way the publisher has chosen to mount this work. The substantial and heavy pages being cased in an extremely flimsy soft cover. However that aside this is a beautiful reference work and the illustrations are of exceptional quality. Provided I can stop myself drooling over the pages I will enjoy referring to them regularly. One fo the first pages I opened hit me very close to home. For a long time I have preached about the beauty of Yamashiro jigane and in particualr the work of the Awataguchi smiths. In an article listed on this site I have tried to explain and illustrate why I found it to be the finest example of sword making I have ever seen Now looking at this book there is an image of a National treasure tachi by Awataguchi Norikuni that I think demonstrates exactly what I have been tryng to explain. Remembering that this man was working 800 years ago with a hammer and anvil and only his eyes and ears to guide him he folded combined and quenched a piece of steel that is about as beautiful as can be seen. I have often talked myself in to believing that work from other schools was "almost" as tight or clear or covered in ji-nie as Awataguchi steel. In my opinion the reality is nothing else comes close to the level of perfection achieved by this family in the kamakura period. As always what is best or better or...... is to some extent subjective and there are incredible examples of other work from all periods illustrated in the book. But in the "one sword makes a collection" stakes I think this would come pretty close.

unshortened swords always command a premium. How much shortening devalues a blade depends on how old it is and by how much it is reduced. With Koto blades suriage (shortening) is more common and accepted. On Shinto swords and alter it is less acceptable. A lot has been written here about Ubu and Suriage work. If you do a search on these terms you may find a lot more detailed explanations

same for me, dissappointing after paying in full so far in advance

I think I have gone through most collecting itterations but still havent reached a conclusion. I started as most do collecting all and everything I could find that might have been Japanese. I then went through a Hizen phase, then a Koto phase. Even now I find that when I examine it in detail I have totally failed to specialise in a given area. My first reaction was Yes I specialise in Yamashiro- except I only have one Yamashiro work. I specialise in koto except 40% of my collection isnt koto. So what do I collect? Having thought about it the The overiding thing I collect is Jigane. There is a consistency in the blades I have and that is they all exhibit certain traits within the hada. But that isnt all. As well as beautiful hada the relationship between the hada and hamon plays a major part and then overall and equally important is the shape and how that works with the other features. It is true that for my own subjective view I find the combinations seen in Yamashiro, or Yamashiro influenced work most appealing. But I have also seen many swords from others of the main traditions that I find equally appealing. So in reality I dont specialise in anything. I look for work that I think to be of good quality and to my eye has that "just right" quality. The Gokaiden is, as has often been said here, a relatively modern concept and was an attempt to try and put some order in to the way blades could be catagorised and by and large it works very well. However there is an undeniable truth that good (and bad) swords were produced in all traditions and all periods. Therefore to restrict oursleves to a specific school, time or type is very limiting. It is also what many collectors do in an attempt to reach a completeness within their collections (e.g.. I have an example of each generation of Mishina smiths or Tadayoshi or whatever) What this single minded approach can do if we are not careful is lead us to ignore some really stunning work. For years I have paid scant attention to Bizen blades and shin-shinto work. In the past few years I have seen work from Osafune smiths and some Late work that I would be delighted to add to my collection. As will be seen from contributions here there are as many approaches to collecting as there are collectors, none are right or wrong. I applaud those who, like Jean, have set themsleves a goal and dedicated time and effort to achieving it. There must be great satisfaction in completing such a task. For me responding to what is in front of me regardless of who or when it was made seems to becoming a more typical approach.

Hi Brian I think in my collecting career I have seen two swords that would fall in to the "1 sword is a collection" catagory. If the possiblity arose to buy it would I sell everything I had and then try and find more to do it? I doubt it. Not because it wouldnt be worth it but I think I would lack the courage to do it. As it is consolidating and condensing a collection to a few good pieces as Jean has done takes a lot of commitment and in some cases courage. The problem of living in a low cost environment is a difficult one to overcome when dealing in globally priced objects. While I think we are very lucky that much of the best in this field remains affordable (just) when compared to other artwork it is still a major obstacle. I dont think there is an easy answer. I wonder if wherever we are we are ever truly satisfied as collectors? I have been very lucky and gone a lot further than I ever I dreamed I would over the many years I have been doing this but I still look with envy at swords I see in other collections and wish I could include them in mine. I cant, so have to be content with what I have and value it for the effort it took to obtain it in the first place and its beauty which has nothing to do with it's financial worth (Sorry starting to sound sanctimonious, I'll shut up!) .

Hi Joe Never say never at the moment I either havent seen something that I felt would add to what I had or (and more often) Things I thought would enhance my collection I couldnt afford. Take a look at the Rai Kunimitsu Tanto on Nihonto.com. I saw that in Japan before Fred bought it and absolutley loved it. If ever I had the means (which I wont) I would have loved to add that to my grouping.. I think you come to accept that there is a limit to how many swords you should hold in a collection When that point is reached is a very personal thing and does change over time. At some point the responsibility to care for what you have begins to become more important than adding to it. Jean has done a great job putting his Gokaiden collection together, and deserves great credit for his focus and his hard work in making it happen.

Hi Jean You and I have discussed this before and I think are in agreement. I had planned to retire when I was 63 in 2017 but a few months back decided to bring it forward by a year so will stop end of 2016. I wont lie and say it isn't a scary prospect but I reached the point where the difference between leaving earlier was not siginifcant enough to make me want to stay. I sort of feel 46 years in industry is enough (for me) and it is time to let someone else take on the new challenges (while I take on some of my own ) I also have reached a collecting plateau and have largely what I hoped to have. I am not sure whether I am more focussed or less disciplined than you having focussed on very different areas than yourself, but I am largely content with what is here. Looking forward to doing those things I always wanted to but career got in the way. Lets swap notes and become old disgacefully together