Brian

As pointed out by Shan via pm, the seller did write in each listing "I have the companion sword to this also currently listed..." so I do think he knew exactly what he had and was selling. At the end of the day though, sellers have the right to do what they want with their items. Doesn't make it right or the decent thing to do, but all we can do is advise them and hope they see reason and logic. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. Nothing more to add, and we should focus on other things now. Brian

Mikolaj, As for as Soten goes, and bearing in mind the wear, I don't think it is bad work at all. A step up from the usual mass produced Soten works, but I dont think up to the level of Mogarashi Soten. However what does bother me the most, is that even when taking into account the fact that the nakago ana must have been opened up later, if you look at how much space the signature would take up if complete, that would leave the nakago ana incredibly narrow? Brian

Jeremy, As you know, Shinshinto are all that much more difficult to pin down to a school or smith as by that time they were copying styles, playing with different schools and generally not following set traits as much as Koto smiths or even Shinto smiths. I think it will be difficult to pin it down further unless it goes to shinsa. If Moses had any more info, I am sure he would have listed it. Nice looking sword though, enjoy it. Brian

Thanks Pete, exactly the info I was looking for. Makes sense. Regards, Brian

"Ronin"......that's a hint there. I am not talking about some random Shoami artist signing a work with a famous name to deceive. I am talking about a group or school that chose to sign their works with a name used by a famous artist and using it as their own mei. (Ignore this tsuba above) That then became their standard mei...so would origami paper to them, or bounce as gimei? Same thing with swords. You have many other Masamune smiths, and some swords will still paper to Masamune, but make it clear it is not the Masamune. Just wondering how this translates to tsuba and fittings. Is the whole school's works considered deception as an attempted copy of the Kaneie, or did they produce their works to stand on their own (lesser) merits in the style of...? Brian

Have a question on Kaneie I was hoping someone could answer, just out of interest. It's not based on the particular tsuba, but just in general. Let's say you have a Saga Kaneie tsuba that is signed Yamashiro kuni Fushimi ju Kaneie and pretty much confirmed to be Saga. Now did this school sign this way to deliberately deceive into thinking it was by THE Kaneie, or did they just adopt that signature as their own. What I am asking is, would a Saga Kaneie that was submitted to shinsa pass as Saga Kaneie work signed this way, or would it be bounced as gimei? Just something I was wondering about this kind of "adopted" mei, and how they are treated. As I said, I am not referencing this particular tsuba..it was just a thought. Brian

*Sigh* Yep..looks like a true daisho to me. Just personal opinion, but it sucks. Hopefully the buyer does get both, look worth restoring to me. Brian

Jacques, I was not talking about these particular swords, Ii was refering to swords in general with old papers. ie: When talking about swords with old papers, it is not that all the swords are particularly suspect...it is the papers that need to be verified. I make no claims about these swords except that if they were very reliable papers, they would have been subsequently resubmitted for new papers before selling. However the seller does rely on the buyers having some basic knowledge of Nihonto obviously and hasn't guaranteed the mei as he often does. Logic is necessary. Brian

Phew John, that hurt my head reading it I think I'll have to study geneology a bit and research many of those terms before I can get my head around it. Regards, Brian

About 2 pages ago Obsessing a bit aren't we folks? One page would have been sufficient, dont'cha think? How about 3 pages on the good swords that are posted instead. Don't fixate too much on the lost causes..what's done is done. Brian

Edwin, As I understand it, it is not that the swords are suspect. It is just that the papers were issued so long ago, that times have changed..research has been done and there has been a lot more information shared. This leads to better appraisal and methods of veriification. Many of the old papers have had their results changed on resubmitting, and the newer papers are generallt regarded as more reliable in their shoshin/gimei calls. Perhaps things weren't as thorough, or there were different procedures, but older papers are not as reliable. This is not to say every old paper will be wrong, just that there is a higher percentage of erroneous calls which are changed at subesquent shinsas. Have I got that right? Regards, Brian

I think Komonjo is Historian's consigment account. I suspect these are mainly swords consigned from Japan. He has a good customer base and has a good reputation. I expect anyone buying will know that older papers run some risk if resubmitted, although the swords are lovely pieces anyways. They are priced accordingly from what i can see. With new papers they would be far higher than these prices. You are getting what you see, and I see that personal inspection is welcome. You could do a lot worse, but bear in mind that old papers can be unreliable in some cases. Brian

Sounds like a bad excuse to me You don't need great knowledge to look at a blade and see that it isn't in a ruined state and shouldn't be ground down at all. Even a novice knows not to grind a nakago. The most basic of research will tell you that. Frankly, I would even grind a poor, low class blade. It just doesn't make sense. Oh well...hopefully he is more educated nowdays. Brian

For the record, the number is on the back upper edge of the nakago...easy to miss. These are the ONLY WW2 swords besides the NCO Shin Gunto that are serial numbered. Anything else is a warning sign of a possible fake. Brian

The Mongolian invasions most certainly did lead to discussion and re-evaluation of the Japanese sword. Remember that they would have lost if it were not for the Kamikaze. Read "The Japanese Sword" by Kanzan Sato, page 54 and 55 for reference to the edict that was sent out by the Bakafu to improve military strategy and equipment, and the resulting creation of the ikubi-kissaki no tachi, and the influence on tanto from then on. It seems to have influenced everything from the shape, to the hamon from there on. Brian

Paul, Just went and checked. If you have it, the larger book by them has a much more detailed chapter on this, with a lot more info starting on page 213. Regards, Brian

Pics as promised.. Brian

I think we have to approach this one very carefully. Guido has made most of the good points. One thing I can say, is that there seem to be changes coming. The other thing I can say, is that those in the know have their lips sealed tight We in the West seem far more perturbed than the Japanese do. No point guessing, as conjecture is only going to cause rumours and that isn't good for anything. With ANY high priced commodity there will always be controversy and some funny deals. This happens everywhere from car licences to art. The NBTHK seem perfectly comfortable with their future role, and I think we just have to wait it out and see what happens. I don't want wild suggestions until there is some confirmed info. I support anyone who promotes Nihonto and they have done great work for many years. As for papers, in the event that standard papers were ever to change, I think higher level papers would retain their desirability, or perhaps even attain a greater significance. You see so many different papers around, and yet the Japanese really don't rely on them unless they are selling to us in the West. Things change and evolve...and we have to go with the flow. Not sure what will happen, but we have to remain responsible and realise that what we start as a rumour spreads pretty fast as fact. let's please bear that in mind. Regards, Brian

Shan, For some reason I had thought these were a single menuki. I see now they are a pair. As such, I really don't think they are bad at all. I would happily mount them myself. The damage is slight if using them on a sword. I do see some nice detail, and far better than the usual thin late Edo "pressed" ones we see. Not masterpieces, but better than a lot of stuff I see. Brian

I can only echo what Dirk has said. This has to rank in the top 3 web resources online. Congrats to the JSSUS for doing this, and to you for allowing it. Great work. I will be linking to it directly above the forum this weekend. Thanks Grey! Brian

Paul, I seem to remember that F&G Japanese Military and Civil Swords and Dirks had a good section on this? If something else, care to share? Regards, Brian

It is what it is. Den Ishido Chikuzen Koretsugu. The papers say that, and that is what it is. Debating about whether it is by Koretsugu or his school isn't going to lead anywhere. It had some traits that made them go to den instead, and anything else is just guesswork. Why the debate about it? This isn't a place to pick a bone with someone about something. It's a lovely wakizashi. Buyers will decide if it is worth that or not. Brian

Sounds to me like what is being suggested here are second thoughts since it was last appraised maybe? I am sure that happens sometimes as further research is done and times change. You can bet your life that no-one is going to submit it for re-appraisal Still a fantastic blade though. Brian

And just a reminder that we focus on the items here and not the prices so much Prices are set by the buyer. Too much, and it doesn't sell. That is indication enough. Let's focus on items please. We study swords..the prices are an unfortunate by-product for most of us Brian

Good to see you back Reinhard. Great chatting with you in Japan. Can anyone summarise this for us laymen and what are the current theories on Sadamune? Brian