Looking for any helpful info Tanto & Wakizashi

[Jim B]

Hello all, I am new to the forum and have just started an interest in Nihonto. My father was in the Korean war as a cook and gave these to me around 37 yrs ago. They have stayed in the closet until just recently where my interest in their history peeked. I do not intend to ever sell. As a boy the tsuka on the Wak split so I glued it. The one side of the tang has some glue residue when I just resplit the tsuka the other day looking for a signature. It has none. The Tanto has remnents of a signature. The Tanto has a 10 5/8' blade and about 60 cm for the long Wakizashi. The Tanto appears to have been actively used and polished many times from the wear near the upper part of blade. Pitina on both tangs appears very old to me. The hamon on the Wak is suguba and as a noob I detect no fatal flaws. Any help as to their history, maker or value would be appreciated. I am debated to have them restored and display but really don't want to do that if displaying in current state is best.

 

This flickr link has a load of decent pics.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/48020059@N04/

Thank you in advance

Jim

[John A Stuart]

Hi Jim, I see you found this forum. A good place to learn about Japanese swords and fittings and the odd other bit of related info. Just to prevent redundancy and to save time and effort I am posting what has been discussed on another forum. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showth ... p?t=104267 John

[Jim B]

Cool Thanks John

 

I checked out your web site. Beautiful things you have acquired. I'm partial to the forge pics, how awesome was that !!!

 

You obviously have several decades of love for this art. Obviously the community is tight and I was only here looking for additional comments. Your comments have been of great value to me. Again Thank You

[Nobody]

Wakizashi:

北海道雨竜郡深川町花園町 – Hokkaido, Uryugun, Fukagawacho, Hanazonocho (A place in Hokkaido)

高橋英造 – Takahashi Eizo (maybe previous owner’s name?)

 

Tanto:

一竿子忠綱 – Ikkanshi Tadatsuna

A famous smith, but I do not know if yours is genuine or not.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

The Tadatsuna is very likely gimei.

[Jim B]

Hi,

 

The Tadatsuna is very likely gimei.

 

This very well may be the case. I will certainly now do more professional exploring. What is interesting is my father was a cook and today we see Tadatsuna cooking knives..might be very ironic or lucky. With further investigation the Wak looks very similar to works from the Tadatsuna school in "tadayuki"'s work. These very well may have been a pair.

[Jim B]

Wakizashi:

北海道雨竜郡深川町花園町 – Hokkaido, Uryugun, Fukagawacho, Hanazonocho (A place in Hokkaido)

高橋英造 – Takahashi Eizo (maybe previous owner’s name?)

 

Tanto:

一竿子忠綱 – Ikkanshi Tadatsuna

A famous smith, but I do not know if yours is genuine or not.

 

Many thanks kind sir..This forum and folks like yourself are much appreciated. Your time and kindness I bow too.

[John A Stuart]

Some info on this smith from Fujishiro. John

TADATSUNA IKKANSHI [GENROKU 1688 SETTSU] SHINTÔ JÔJÔSAKU

He is the son of Ômi no Kami Tadatsuna, and he becomes the nidai Tadatsuna. He is commonly called Mandayû and his Gô is Ikkanshi. He received the title of Ômi no Kami. His works are uniform choji with long ashi iri, there is sugu yakidashi in the base, the bôshi is ko-maru with a deep (return), and there is also notare midareba. He is famous for his horimono, and there are carvings of hairyû, noboriryû, kudariryû, kenmakiryû, umeki makiryû nado. There are necessarily soemei of "HORI DÔ SAKU" or "HORIMONO DÔ SAKU". The horimono of around Enpô are cut shallow, but the engraving successively becomes deeper, and it is commonly thought he was taught engraving by Osaka Jû Fujita. His initial mei was TADAKUNI, and these are his works of Kanbun Ninen (1662) when he was 19 years old. (Ryôwazamono)

Signatures: AWATAGUCHI ÔMI NO KAMI TADATSUNA

AWATAGUCHI IKKANSHI TADATSUNA

IKKANSHI TADATSUNA

AWATAGUCHI IKKANSHI TADATSUNA NYÛDÔ

AWATAGUCHI ÔMI NO KAMI TADATSUNA CHAKUSHI SETTSU JÛ FUJIWARA TADAKUNI, Fujiwara Tadakuni, living in Settsu, and the chakushi of Awataguchi Ômi no Kami Tadatsuna

[Jim B]

Thank you John and you were right.

 

I'm just throwing this out there for any other noobs, don't use wood glue. It obviously destroyed the metal. I'm am going to clean it out to be able to get the tang back in properly.

[Jim B]

VERY happy man tonight I cleaned the tang on the tonto with isopropyl alcohol and low and behold the signature appeared. Without any doubt in my mind it is Ikkanshi Tadatsuna. It matches his signature on "The Weapons and Spirit of the Japanese Warrior" page 68 by Clive Sinclaire.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Mei location doesn't match, nakago jiri doesn't match.

 

Usually mune is steep oroshi and mune and ha of the nakago should be roundish.

 

 

ps it seems Ikkanshi Tadatsuna never made tanto.

[Jim B]

Hi,

 

Mei location doesn't match, nakago jiri doesn't match.

 

Usually mune is steep oroshi and mune and ha of the nakago should be roundish.

 

 

ps it seems Ikkanshi Tadatsuna never made tanto.

 

Thank you Jacques for taking the time to examine the photo's. Maybe you could give me some specific examples or pictures to refer too? I would appreciate that.

 

My limited knowledge and study shows only (1) tonto so far googled "An Awataguchi Tanto" at Christies. The signature like mine is omote with proper placement on the right side of hole and the tang end is almost identical with Tadatsuna being mostly referred to as ha-agari kuri-jiri given the amount of rust.

 

I'm not sure what your getting at in the "Usually mune is steep oroshi and mune and ha of the nakago should be roundish" Most blades I've seen of Tadatsuna like this one at Christies has a smaller edge on the ha side. Please explain in a detail I might better understand.

 

TIA

[Mark]

If the mei were cut in the late 1600's you would expect it to be clearer. Tadatsuna cut his signature quite powerfully (deeply)

[Jim B]

If the mei were cut in the late 1600's you would expect it to be clearer. Tadatsuna cut his signature quite powerfully (deeply)

Hi Mark

 

I totally agree, I would also expect to see some file marks. There are none. The blade has been used a lot, the rust factor on the tang as I have said is pretty bad for whatever reason I don't know. Saying that, depth would obviously have been lost to a degree.

[Jim B]

One question about gimei. I have heard it has been around for 200 yrs. and the obvious reason would be for $$$$. Why would anyone go to the trouble on a blade with this much wear to gimei it? There is about a 140 yr. span that it would have had to be done since it is in my families possesion for 60. A guy buys a nice blade (he thinks) and goes and uses it a lot? or the blade was in major wear state and he pays a fortune for it? No, I'm not seeing either of these senarios. The blade has little value in its current state even if real due to the use and rust factor.

 

I can however see this blade being purchased from a fine craftsman and being used and used as a blade should be.

 

Someday I will have them looked at, till then, they are what they are. It's not everyday I find an authentic Tanto with lotus and gomabashi that was enjoyed repeatedly by its owner. I like that fact alone.

[Jim B]

Question on my sword of 59.8 cm..isn't the proper description of that Kodachi and not Wakizashi?

 

I'm making a custom unique wall stand for these with a picture frame and want to describe the long sword properly. I'll post a pic when done.

 

TIA

[John A Stuart]

Either one is good for me. John

[bone]

As I understand gimei, sometimes the guys who were famous hundreds of years ago may not be so famous now. Anyway gimei doesn't mean the blade is bad. Just means the signature isn't real.

[Jim B]

I deleted the pics so as to not take up space, all are viewable on original post with flickr.

 

Thank you forum administrator for the ability to have some fun.

[Brian]

Jim,

I will remove the ability to edit posts if people start a trend of going back and deleting pictures.

In a few days or weeks, those Flikr pics will likely have been removed, and therefore this thread will be irrellevant and meaningless. Therefore I either need to remove this post now (which makes this whole exercise a waste of time) or leave it here knowing the pics will disappear. Leave those decisions up to the admin and mods please.

 

Brian

[b.hennick]

I view Messageboard as a searchable database. When I want info on somthing I turn to the search built into mseeageboard and hunt for the info here. Deleting pictures makes the exercise less fruitfull.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Jim,

About gimei, re your Ikkanshi Tadatsuna. Tadatsuna was well respected in his life time (late 17th century) and has continued to be so since. Gimei (forged signatures) of his work have been created since the day he first became famous, over 300 years ago, and are probably still being made today. As long as there are customers with more money than knowledge, there will be forgers to supply them with merchandise.

Grey

[Jim B]

Jim,

I will remove the ability to edit posts if people start a trend of going back and deleting pictures.

In a few days or weeks, those Flikr pics will likely have been removed, and therefore this thread will be irrellevant and meaningless. Therefore I either need to remove this post now (which makes this whole exercise a waste of time) or leave it here knowing the pics will disappear. Leave those decisions up to the admin and mods please.

 

Brian

I apologize Brian, I could have sworn I was skimming thru posts and saw you had said something about too many pics and to use outside services. Was just being helpful. I will put them back, no worries to me what so ever. I can post them all if you like. I don't think my Flilr's will dissapear, my beautiful face has been on there for over a year.

[Jim B]

If the mei were cut in the late 1600's you would expect it to be clearer. Tadatsuna cut his signature quite powerfully (deeply)

 

BTW Mark, I don't think you can have it both ways. I now see a thread from early 2009 where everyone is trying to guess the fake. The answer was the sustained depth of the chiseling. One look at mine and it is obvious the depth was amazingly similiar.

 

wow, not much left but most is still there...pretty good faker if you ask me

[Jim B]

As promised, my $30 custom wall mount and frame. Waiting on home made rice glue to dry for tsuka and were set. Again, I want to thank everyone for their comments and who knows, maybe I'll find myself another treasure someday.

[Jamie]

Nice display although If you intend to display them bare, you might consider at the very least enclosing them in glass. Shirarsaya were designed to protect the bare blades from atmospheric elements. And being enclosed in them all this time is part of the reason these are in fair shape. My .02

 

Jamie

[Jim B]

Nice display although If you intend to display them bare, you might consider at the very least enclosing them in glass. Shirarsaya were designed to protect the bare blades from atmospheric elements. And being enclosed in them all this time is part of the reason these are in fair shape. My .02

 

Jamie

Yep yep, The design is such that I can easily store the sayas when the Emperor and his dignitaries come over. Those spots in the back are for a shorter Wak and a Katana

[Jim B]

Just a quick update. I took the swords to the Japanese Cultural Center sword club and was given the following info.

 

Blades appear to have been made in the 1500's

The wak was shortened by 4" and is tired. No polishing would be advised.

The Tonto has fire damage, possibly house fire type or being used as cooking tool stirring coals. Temper destroyed.

It was thought that these could have been a Japanese officers heirlooms abandoned in Korea during a hasty retreat as officers would bring their belongings to take up residence.

 

This all brings me joy as the cooking angle plays nicely into my father being a cook in the war. It also justifies my feeling when holding the wak that just maybe a great Samurai welded it in many battles polishing it numerous times as he contemplated his heroic efforts. They are now our familys proud heirlooms.

 

It's all about the history!