Shippo pattern or star maps?

[Dan tsuba]

Sam,

My advice to you is read the threads I presented (and the evidence) with an open mind.

Zen mind, beginners mind.

Enter the thread without any preconceived ideas.

Only in that way can you gain knowledge.

[Scogg]

I already did before I got involved. Reading your other thread is actually what motivated me to speak up here. 

I suggest you do the same. Zen mind, beginners mind. Imagine you're trying to learn, and find yourself on one of your discussions. 

I'm doing that in real time, and spending hours looking for any sources that reliably correlate these fragmented shippo designs to constelations. 
Have you tried doing that, or is that a task for us and not you? If so, would you mind sharing your findings? I'm coming up empty.

I'm not talking about googling images to compare, we can all do that, and we have seen why it's the basis of your hypothesis.
-Sam
 

[Dan tsuba]

Sam,

Have you read this thread and my posts and have seen the constellations, the old star charts, the current star charts, and the similarity of star patterns that I am referring to compared to those star map tsuba?

You stated "Have you tried doing that, or is that a task for us and not you?" 

Are you trying to be rude to me? 

If so, KMA (maybe you need to look that up, but with your know it all attitude, I am certain you know what it means!).

What evidence can I provide that will convince you of the star patterns shown on those tsuba?  Let me know and I will try to find it.

The "puzzlemaster".

 

[Scogg]

48 minutes ago, Scogg said:

But to learn anything, I need some source material, period document, something published, maybe nbthk papers or older papers, or expert input that corroborates your theories.

 

 

Anything with the words shippo and constellation in the same sentence? Correlating this known design pattern with the other. Anything beyond simple pattern similarity 

[Toryu2020]

Japanese Art Motives by Maude Rex Allen 1917

 

"The Shippo or seven precious things are; gold,silver, coral, crystal,agate, and pearl. The list varies, and the older records include amber, tortoise-shell, and mother-of-pearl. The Japanese term for enamels of all kinds is Shippo; the word is probably of Chinese origin, and goes back to a time when amber, and tortoise-shell, mother-of-pearl, coral, agate, rock-crystal, and lapis lazuli were used as inlays. The shippo form is oval, like a flattened grain of rice, or like the small metal cells which, when filled with enamel, form the basis of much of the cloissonne' work. This simple form has been varied and developed into beautiful arabesque and diaper designs.

 

There is far more in this term shippo than can be grasped by us, because perhaps this mystic number seven is applied and made use of to express in its summing up what cannot be expressed by any other medium. Seven precious things to them are like the seven precious colors and the seven separate notes of music, by whose means all the glorious art of the world has found expression and interpretation."

 

Shippo BY THE WAY is given as one of the treasures filling the Takara-bune along with the seven lucky gods...

[zanilu]

Swap "constellation" with "cast", the result is the same! 

 

Luca

[zanilu]

I was expecting your downvote Dan... 

[Shugyosha]

Hi Luca, 

Luckily all the upvotes will  compensate for it. 

[Dan tsuba]

Zanilu (Luca) of course (as you stated above) "I was expecting your downvote Dan".

 

That is because you knew that you were being an ass!

 

As far as I am concerned your beating a dead horse emoji is childish.

As I see it, you are the deadhorse and I am the one holding the stick!

 

Just because you have those "like", "heart", and "ha, ha," emojis doesn't mean you are clever.

 

You forget that this is a worldwide forum, and your smart ass attitude (and ignorance) is obvious to everyone.

 

Maybe that is why this forum doesn't seem to have any new members that stay on it very long.

 

Because eventually, they will run into someone like you!

 

If you have nothing to contribute to a thread, other than a smart ass comment and an emoji, maybe you should find another hobby!

 

 

[zanilu]

An ass for sure, but a wise one...

 

Ignorant, that's a given. There are orders of magnitude more things that I do not know than things I know! But an least I do not try to shove ill conceived ideas, lacking any kind of backing, down the throat of everyone and trow a tantrum if they are not accepted as pure genius. 

 

There is an old Italian says that I will not cite because it will be too rude. And I always try to be gentleman. 

 

 

[Hokke]

25 minutes ago, zanilu said:

There is an old Italian says that I will not cite it because it will be too rude. And I always try to be gentleman. 

 

 

Im not fluent in Italian, but my father said this one enough that I eventually learned it

"Ad ogni pazzo piace il suon del suo sonaglio"

Edited Saturday at 06:43 AM by Hokke

[zanilu]

Nice one Hokke, I didn't know it! 

Probably it is from another part of Italy.

 

I intended another one... 

 

Luca

[Brian]

I don't think it's people like Luca that make newcomers leave. In fact people like him are the reason people stay. I'm very glad to have more people like him and others like him here. It means we get a steady stream of facts and reality based opinions. 
Nuff said.

[FlorianB]

On 7/9/2026 at 10:41 PM, Dan tsuba said:

That thread has about 66.3 K views.

You’re so proud about the number of readers of Your „Cast Iron“ thread. 
Do You really think folks read it, because they are amazed by Your profound insights?
No. They read it for entertainment, I’m afraid.
They have been entertained by the quarrel between You and all those who won’t acclaim Your theories.

 

At least those insults and vilifications put off not only new but also long-time members.

„Onward“ like this? I hope not.

Edited Saturday at 09:25 AM by FlorianB

[Steves87]

Not going to lie, I havent read a lot of the posts just yet (I will), but just wanted to post this pic before I forget. Found it on the Facebook doom scrolling... somewhere in India apparently... but masonry for masonry lovers

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all, 

 

Now moving on from all the insults. 

 

A few days ago, I sent emails to a few antique dealers (that deal with tsuba) that are in Japan. 

 

This is the email I sent- 

 

“Sir, 

With respect- 

I have included 2 pictures of the same tsuba below. 

Could you please give me your opinion on what that design on the tsuba is. 

Is it showing stars and star constellations. 

Or is it showing something else? 

With respect, 

Dan” 

 

Now, the pictures that I included in that email above are shown below. 

 

I just received my first response from a dealer in Japan (I don’t feel it is necessary to state the business name of the dealer or the name of the person responding).  That email response is- 

 

“Dear Dan, 
 
Thank you for your message and for the photographs of the tsuba. 
A design of scattered dots or small circles on a tsuba often represents stars, and such motifs are sometimes intended to depict specific constellations. 
In Japanese sword fittings, star motifs are frequently associated with the Myoken (North Star) faith, and arrangements such as the Big Dipper (Hokuto Shichisei) are not uncommon. 
 
Kind regards,” 

 

 

 

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

2 hours ago, Steves87 said:

..... but masonry for masonry lovers

That may well look like star constellations to some....

[Dan tsuba]

Wow! 

 

All I hear (since my last post) is silence on this thread. 

 

It is like the sound of crickets in the night- chirp, chirp, chirp, chirp, is all that can be heard! 

 

What happened to all the smart-ass comments from some members that they so readily were willing to contribute? 

 

What happened to the “beating a dead horse emoji” that someone thought was so clever? 

 

Just asking! 

 

Not only that, I have some more emails to antique tsuba dealers in Japan that I may get a response to. 

 

If I receive a response from those antique tsuba dealers in Japan, I will add them to this thread. 

 

Onward, the “puzzlemaster”! 

 

 

[Dereks]

As always, you only see what you want to see.

 

The dealer clearly explained how star patterns are depicted on tsuba, and he does not agree that your shippo patterns are actually star constellations.

 

And let me remind you that Japanese dealers are dealers, not researchers. Most simply don’t care enough to investigate these theories.

 

You started this discussion by stating, “These tsuba are not Shippo patterns, but are star maps.”

 

So there’s no point arguing with you, because nothing anyone says will change your mind. You don’t seem to respect other people’s opinions when they differ from your own.

 

Maybe you should write another book on the subject and try to sell it on Amazon. 

 

To me, you’re simply a negative attention seeker who enjoys provoking arguments and keeping threads going for pages and pages.

 

Even if we brought an 18th-century Japanese tsubashi into the discussion, you’d still argue with him.

 

That’s not a Zen beginner’s mind. It’s closer to the Dunning–Kruger effect.

 

Your posts shouldn’t be taken seriously. I don’t think anyone should even bother replying to them— just a waste of time.

 

 

I won’t be replying to your response, so don’t bother.

 

[Scogg]

Well said Dereks. 
 

Dan, please read that dealers words carefully. After you prompted the question about stars without mentioning shippo, did he say specifically that your tsuba is depicting constellations?
 

If you asked him “does this depict shippo or something else?” without mentioning stars,  don’t you think the reply would have been different? You’re manipulating the conversation to support your argument, and then using it here. If I were in his shoes, I would not appreciate that. 

 

If you’re so proud of your topic views, why not send the dealers the link to this discussion? Give them the whole context. That would be fair if you’re going to quote their words for your argument, right?  

 

Just because you take offense at being called out for this same exact behavior over and over and over again, doesn’t mean people are slinging insults.  
 

As far as insults, you’re the one calling us all names like smarta**. Personally I’d rather be a smarta** than the opposite. 
 

Onward and out for me. This is just ridiculous at this point. If you don’t get what we’re saying by now, you just never will. 

-Sam 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all! 

 

So, in his post, Dereks stated “I won’t be replying to your response, so don’t bother”. 

 

Well then, let me just throw this out there to whomever is there! 

 

Derek also stated, “The dealer clearly explained how star patterns are depicted on tsuba, and he does not agree that your shippo patterns are actually star constellations”. 

 

I don’t know, it seems to me that the question that I asked the dealer which was- 

 

“I have included 2 pictures of the same tsuba below.  

Could you please give me your opinion on what that design on the tsuba is.  

Is it showing stars and star constellations.  

Or is it showing something else?” 

 

That question is very explicit, first it asks his "opinion on what that design on the tsuba is" and then it is asking "is it showing stars and star constellations. Or is it showing something else?"

 

I mean that seems like a very clear question to me! 

 

And his reply (shown in one of my above posts) is very clear also!

 

Then Dereks goes on to further state “And let me remind you that Japanese dealers are dealers, not researchers. Most simply don’t care enough to investigate these theories.” 

 

Is he implying that the Japanese antique tsuba dealers don’t know what they are talking about? 

 

I don’t know where he got that opinion from!  

 

Oh well! 

 

Anyway, I found another picture of what I believe is a star map tsuba. 

 

That tsuba is shown below. 

 

Now, the way that I interpret that motif is clouds and star constellations. 

 

The motif on the bottom is showing 2 clouds and a constellation. 

 

The motif on the top is showing 1 cloud and a constellation. 

 

Anyway, that is how I interpret it. 

 

Onward, the “puzzlemaster” (if you read this thread, you will know where I got that from!). 

 

 

[zanilu]

[Dan tsuba]

So all, 

 

For a couple of days, I have been trying to research the several books that I have (and the internet) to see if I can find out anywhere if it was ever stated that the motif I termed as “star maps” and "constellations" was ever mentioned anywhere. 

 

No luck yet. 

 

But then again there is the following problem (taken from AI)- 

 

“It is impossible to provide an exact number of untranslated Edo period texts, but historians estimate that over 3 million books, documents, and manuscripts have survived from this era (1603–1868). Only a tiny fraction have been translated or transcribed into modern Japanese, leaving the vast majority of historical material largely untouched.” 

 

Also from AI- 

 

“Translating all of Japan's Edo period (1603–1868) texts—estimated at over 3 million preserved manuscripts and books—is an impossible task to fully quantify. Because the sheer volume is so immense, the translation process is estimated to take hundreds of thousands of man-hours and would require generations of scholars and advanced AI.” 

 

So, perhaps a possible description of the motif of star maps (or constellations) on a tsuba is out there, but it may take at least another 50 years (or longer) to be able to refer to it (of course by that time, I will have long been pushing up daisies!).

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all! 

 

So, I just received a response to my question from another antique tsuba dealer in Japan. 

 

I sent the dealer the same question and pictures of the tsuba as I sent to the other dealer that gave me their response (that question, response, and pictures can be read and seen in one of my previous posts). 

 

The dealer’s response was- 

 

“Dear Dan san 
Thank you for your message. 
 
Thanks send me picture. 
Yes, I think, too. 
Maybe Big Dipper. 

What do you think? 

Thank you!” 

 

Notice that there is no hesitation in the reply.  The star pattern was immediately identified as “Maybe Big Dipper” (although my personal opinion is that it is the Little Dipper). 

 

Nothing was stated by the dealer about the pattern being anything else.  Not a Shippo type pattern, or any other type of pattern. 

 

 

[Brian]

Well then it must be definitive...I mean a Japanese seller has to know a lot more than guys studying and collecting Japanese swords for the same period of time, right?
Was the dealer also an amateur astronomer too? And even if a tsuba or 2 have representations of stars (which is likely) then that must mean all shippo must be stars, right? All those tsubashi lying on their backs at night planning their next tsuba.
Wonder why they forgot to include that in their pattern books?