What happens to collectons?

[David Flynn]

I have two sons.  Both have stated that upon my demise,  the swords will be sold and the money received, split evenly.

I like Dee, don't see these as "Spiritual Items",  I do see them as Weapons and Art.  As much in my mind, I would like them to go to a good home, realistically, unless I manage to move them along before hand, I'll not have a say in the matter.

[Ed]

9 hours ago, When Necessary said:

As I've stated before, I certainly don't worship these pieces of metal, beautiful though they usually are. Therefore, I cannot subscribe to the notion that I am a mere 'custodian' of objects which have some 'spiritual' value which far exceeds that of, say, old coins or paintings. I used my hard earned money to buy them, ergo, they are my personal property - thus, I can dispose of them in any way which I see fit. Future generations can amass their own collections and I feel no obligation to them whatsoever.

 

I lack any heirs and I have absolutely no intentions of allowing mammon-driven dealers get hold of my swords upon my death. Likewise, none of the blades are exalted enough to warrant display in a museum but, even if they were, most museums would simply prop them in the corner of a basement, forget all about them and ultimately let them rust and disintegrate - so they are also out as a potential repository.

 

Nonetheless, should I find an individual whom I like and respect well enough to bequeath the swords to before I die, then fair enough. If not, I have already made formal arrangements with a law firm and the friend who shall be acting as the executor of my will. Following my cremation, my ashes will be taken out to a very specific spot in the Pacific Ocean by boat and scattered overboard. These will then be followed into the deep by all my swords, plus some other, very personal, items.

 

Please spare me your outrage if you have any - as I really don't care. I am simply providing an honest response to this thread.

I understand your sentiment and am not outraged by it. I will say it sounds a little selfish. Perhaps you could have your executor sell off your swords and use the money to help others, like orphans, victims of abuse, veterans or wildlife. At least some good would come from your collection opposed to dumping historical artifacts to the bottom of the sea.

 

I have a friend sending me his collection to sell and donate the money to St. Judes Hospital for pediatric cancer research.

BTW: Once I have them I will post them here if anyone would like to help.

Edited September 29 by Ed

[Matsunoki]

Why leave the dispersal of such a specialised niche collection to chance?

Why burden anyone, especially loved ones with such tricky responsibilities?

Dispose of them yourself before you depart the planet.

You then know where they have gone and you haven’t lumbered anyone else with the task

It can be quite enjoyable (speaking from recent experiences)

(and don’t forget potential death duties/taxes if you do leave it all behind)

(maybe keep just one favourite item?)

[Hokke]

3 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Why leave the dispersal of such a specialised niche collection to chance?

Because, in general, people dont have the luxury of knowing when their time is up. People spend good money on their collectibles and want to enjoy them for as long as possible. If I remember from your previous comments, you still own collectibles and yet you could be hit by a bus tomorrow which means someone else would likely be "burdened" with your possessions. 

All that said, I think the relevant points have been made by many, starting with Bruce. If you have collectables, make notes on their cost and potential value. Leave the names of friends who can sell them online or trusted dealers. This way, it's not a burden to anyone, but only a phone call away from disposition.

 

[Matsunoki]

25 minutes ago, Hokke said:

Because, in general, people dont have the luxury of knowing when their time is up. People spend good money on their collectibles and want to enjoy them for as long as possible. If I remember from your previous comments, you still own collectibles and yet you could be hit by a bus tomorrow which means someone else would likely be "burdened" with your possessions. 

Depends how old you are. I’m officially “old” and far closer to the end than the beginning so I have just sold my sword collection and enjoyed it all nearly as much as buying them all. Also I  didn’t want to risk losing my marbles so that I became incapable of handling things. Yes I have a gun collection to sort out and I’m about to start that. 
Of course I agree if you are young it’s different and there is always the proverbial bus that could scupper plans but Nihonto is such a specialist field I think it’s safer to handle the dispersal ourselves…..when we approach the end of the line. 
I also think the tax implications are often forgotten about if your estate is considerable. Selling stuff before departure means you are only looking at capital gains (or capital losses!) whereas after departing it becomes full inheritance tax liabilities depending on whatever your local taxation requirements are.
 

[Hokke]

9 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Nihonto is such a specialist field I think it’s safer to handle the dispersal ourselves…..when we approach the end of the line. 

Agreed, its certainly the most optimal choice.

[Bruce Pennington]

Peter,

To answer your question about an introductory letter - It's nicely worded, yet I don't think I would respond to such an offer unless I already knew the individual sending it to me.  The scammers are so rampant these days, my first reaction would be to assume it's a scam.  Now, if you were known to me, then such a letter would be taken and honestly considered.

[Hoshi]

Quote

Nonetheless, should I find an individual whom I like and respect well enough to bequeath the swords to before I die, then fair enough. If not, I have already made formal arrangements with a law firm and the friend who shall be acting as the executor of my will. Following my cremation, my ashes will be taken out to a very specific spot in the Pacific Ocean by boat and scattered overboard. These will then be followed into the deep by all my swords, plus some other, very personal, items.

 

Hi Dee, 

 

I know this is ragebait, but it's not healthy for the community and should still be called out. 

 

It is profoundly unwise to post such a take on a forum devoted to the preservation and study of Nihonto.

* edit admin *

 

 

I trust you'll get back on your feet and grow a thicker skin. 

 

Get better soon, 

 

Hoshi

[When Necessary]

14 hours ago, Hoshi said:

 

Hi Dee, 

 

I know this is ragebait, but it's not healthy for the community and should still be called out. 

 

It is profoundly unwise to post such a take on a forum devoted to the preservation and study of Nihonto. 

 

I trust you'll get back on your feet and grow a thicker skin. 

 

Get better soon, 

 

Hoshi

Dear Hoshi,

 

I'm sorry if it came across as ragebait (that's an entirely new term for me) but, although obviously likely to appear provocative, it was seriously not intended that way. I definitely have no desire whatsoever to stir up the individual you mentioned - I'm greatly enjoying the silence. Also, I think this is a far too valuable a thread to see it devolve into another arena of self negating and pointless mudslinging. 

It's rather ironic your parting shot of "get well soon" as there is a definite reason I've been making specific plans as to the disposal of my various collections. Perhaps it is the very necessity for me to do so which has led me to such a nihilistic solution for getting rid of my swords.
I really don't care if it goes against the ethos of this forum or if I appear selfish for not aiding a charity instead - it is what it is and I feel a certain strange satisfaction in arranging that outcome.

Objects which once held my fascination for decades now seem rather meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

 

On a lighter note, one of my swords might well bump into the Honjo Masamune on the seabed.

[Kantaro]

2 hours ago, Hokke said:

  2 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Nihonto is such a specialist field I think it’s safer to handle the dispersal ourselves…..when we approach the end of the line. 

Agreed, its certainly the most optimal choice.

 

We do know the average Nihonto collector is older than 50 years and nobody knows when the end is near. So when do you stop collecting? When you are 70 or older? My dad died when he was 63...

[Bugyotsuji]

There is no defined age cut-off point. When do you stop driving, for example? Everyone is different, though health and advancing years do play an increasing part.

 

Some of the people I know in Japan have been discussing decluttering, and letting go of some of their collections. I know people who have gradually narrowed it down to their two or three favorite blades, wishing then to either pass them on to an interested relative or to donate them to a museum.

 

Personally I am not yet ready to give up driving, but I have found that my general enthusiasm and desire to collect in various fields has gently begun to evaporate. Having said that, if I see something nice... 

[Cola]

I don't get the notion that it would be a burden to your loved ones to inherit your collection. 

I love all the weird things my dad and (great?)grandparents collected, even if I didn't get to know some of them.

The idea that they thought it worthwhile to get and preserve those things, and I get to wonder why is the closest connection I have to some of my grandparents. 

 

I guess the only problem with nihonto is the maintenance, so I  guess accompanying the collection with a letter and some obligatory reading would help.

Worst case scenario they pawn everything off and have a party, but then at least I tried.

[Scogg]

If I were to die unexpectedly (I'm only 36), my collection would be left with my wife. 

For years now, she has patiently put up with me talking about swords, sword deals, and watched me travel all over the place and meet all sorts of people.

I've conveyed to her the people I trust in this field. She will have the option of contacting them, or keeping my swords for herself.
I wouldn't have married her if I didn't trust her; and I think i've set her up to make the right choice.

Lets hope that day doesn't come anytime soon 
-Sam

[Jussi Ekholm]

As I try to keep track of high level Japanese swords just for my own enjoyment, it is also nice to see that sometimes high end items get donated to various museums and on few occasions also to shrines and other places. To me as a sword enjoyer that is something I adore, as in my travels in Japan I have been able to see several donated items in various museums. Maybe one day I might follow this route too. Of course I understand for sword collectors this might not be seen as wonderful thing as the item is pretty much permanently out of circulation once it lands to a museum.

[Sebuh]

love this thread, extremely informative. Good to know theres more to it than Sothebys and Christies. No arguments! loving this so far.

[Hokke]

3 hours ago, Hoshi said:

I understand you're looking for attention, perhaps in the hope of Rayhan bursting in with a "Good riddance on the mumei shinshinto" and so on and so forth, and see the thread devolve into a messy bath of ad-hominem, but this is not the way. 

 

Im not sure why you have made such an assumption, unless it was in an effort to lash out at someone with whom you may disagree. Invoking the name of a past member whose participation was selfish and destructive, seems to serve no purpose. What I do know is this: preservation and study of nihonto is personal. Once you own an item, you can do with it as you please. If your assertion is that because one individual chooses to remand their collection to the deep, that somehow this will influence others to do the same, is a stretch to say the least, but then you already know that. You can view it how ever you wish of course, but accusing members of seeking attention based on nothing but your personal feelings, is hardly the way to maintain positive decorum here. 

[George KN]

16 hours ago, When Necessary said:

Following my cremation, my ashes will be taken out to a very specific spot in the Pacific Ocean by boat and scattered overboard. These will then be followed into the deep by all my swords, plus some other, very personal, items.

 

Fascinating thread, and I realise it's very emotionally charged (not least because of some of the friction/culture on this forum) - but please don't do this

 

A single example of this would make it *really* hard for us to argue that people shouldn't use belt sanders or try amateur restoration on their rusty nihonto.

 

We are temporary custodians are we not? For these swords to be here today they have already had to pass through multiple generations. It seems such a shame to break that chain!

 

On a personal level, I 100% understand wanting to be buried with the items I hold most dear. But please, do consider how letting them go to new owners helps continue your own legacy, albeit in a smaller (but considerably less final) way.

[Lareon]

3 hours ago, Scogg said:

If I were to die unexpectedly (I'm only 36), my collection would be left with my wife. 

For years now, she has patiently put up with me talking about swords, sword deals, and watched me travel all over the place and meet all sorts of people.

I've conveyed to her the people I trust in this field. She will have the option of contacting them, or keeping my swords for herself.
I wouldn't have married her if I didn't trust her; and I think i've set her up to make the right choice.

Lets hope that day doesn't come anytime soon 
-Sam

 

 

We are of the same age and the same plan haha

[Rivkin]

If the blade has limited cultural or artistic value... 

Wotanists/Valhallists do burn bodies with swords and other weapons. Conversely when fighting or decapitating someone, it is proper to use an even better weapon, in the very least to show respect.

 

Would not use koto for either of these purposes, but a shinto blade, why not. We will all die, and so will all the swords. Naturally they will much later than us, but then to go off in battle is a great honor.

[George KN]

I like shinto blades though 

 

But serious counterpoint, nihonto aren't just weapons - they have both historic and artistic value too. (Limited doesn't mean none?)

 

Imagine what all previous owners of that blade would think of us intentionally destroying them... We can surely do better than that? They say a person dies twice - once with their own body, and then next when the last person that remembers them eventually dies.

 

Make sure that second death is a long time off - go give a blade to some young adult that couldn't dream of affording them, sparking an interest in them for life.

 

This is a forum for the preservation of Japanese swords right? 😅

[Rivkin]

Who knows if a sword, or its previous owner, prefers the thing stored in a safe or dying while doing what it was created to do.

I don't. But I would certainly prefer to be killed by a quality blade rather than an ugly mass produced crap covered with machine oil.

Unless its important historically... It has importance as a link of warrior cultures, past and present.

 

And I heard you are not supposed to own mumei shinto and shinshinto anyway.

[Hoshi]

Quote

 

What I do know is this: preservation and study of nihonto is personal. Once you own an item, you can do with it as you please

 

 

Spending capital to acquire valuable cultural artifacts with the intent to destroy them is categorically unacceptable from a deontological moral standpoint.

This is not up for debate—it is a founding principle of this community. 

 

This principle underlies our firm stance against practices such as amateur polishing.

 

There is a troubling pattern here, a parochial bias that coalesces into a kind of populist faction, quick to leap to each other’s defense, with very little grace and forethought. It is understandable—tribal solidarity is deeply human, but it is also hampering your progression in this field. Worst, it hampers the progression of others, as this forum is a public good.

 

Quote

Im not sure why you have made such an assumption

 

Now you know, look in the mirror. You just fell for the bait - hard - on the other side of it.  

 

With all that said, @Hokke, I sincerely wish you the best, may you find wisdom and growth. 

 

Best, 

 

Hoshi

 

...

 

@Rivkin

 

Quote

 

Who knows if a sword, or its previous owner, prefers the thing stored in a safe or dying while doing what it was created to do.

I don't. But I would certainly prefer to be killed by a quality blade rather than an ugly mass produced crap covered with machine oil.

Unless its important historically... It has importance as a link of warrior cultures, past and present.

 

And I heard you are not supposed to own mumei shinto and shinshinto anyway.

 

 

 

[John C]

7 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

my first reaction would be to assume it's a scam.

I've given my wife your info so she'll have a resource when I shed this mortal coil. I'll send you my wife's name so you don't think she's scamming you!!!

 

John C.

[Hokke]

1 hour ago, Hoshi said:

Spending capital to acquire valuable cultural artifacts with the intent to destroy them is categorically unacceptable from a deontological moral standpoint.

This is not up for debate—it is a founding principle of this community. 

Well, thats lots of words to say you don’t like the idea of someone being buried with their nihonto. Unfortunately, since there is ZERO you can do to prevent it, hence relying on morality and not law, turns out, it IS acceptable.

 

I agree, this is not up for debate.

 

However, if you are by some authority, stating that it is a RULE of this forum that nihonto MUST be passed on, whether it be through sale or gift, as a prerequisite for participation here, then by all means pull your strings and let’s see that disclosure when people create an account. Otherwise, how about refraining from pulling a productive thread into the weeds. 
 

All that said, it is not my choice to be buried with my possessions, arrangements were made years ago, but I, like many others will not be told what I must do with my property, based on someone else’s morals. You may think this is the same issue as someone who wants to DIY a polish, but it’s not. The key difference is “intent to destroy”. 

[Rivkin]

1 hour ago, Hoshi said:

@Rivkin

 

Should I pay attention to this?

Everytime I think about it, the answer is "I don't know". Alien society and people, alien manners... who am I to judge? Observed ill intent or impropriety might exist only in the reflection of our self-absorption.

Certainly, few today understand what swords really signify.

Born in a society which believes the history ended in 1945, the "history" being kind of unenlightened insanity, at best accepted through preservation.

 

The best recent deathbed treatment given to a sword was by Mishima. Strange, out of place, "pointless", yet undeniably beautiful and in many ways proper for the sword, proper for the smith.

Like Kondo Isami honoring Kotetsu, anyone using an old blade, or any blade at all should consider the responsibility. If he is a warrior whose fame will endure for centuries, fire burial with a beloved blade is proper and will honor the blade and the smith. If one is to slaughter hundred enemies, it honors both the blade and the smith.

Use the old blades. Make your deeds worthy.

Edited September 29 by Rivkin

[Robert S]

2 hours ago, Rivkin said:

Born in a society which believes the history ended in 1945, the "history" being kind of unenlightened insanity, at best accepted through preservation.

 

 

My experience is that if someone thinks history ended in 1945, they're on the older side, like me, and actually probably believe that history ended with the end of the Vietnam war.  Some younger people I know seem to believe history began when the internet began, and everything was effortlessly online.  Everything before that is prehistory .  They have a certain point .

 

My nihonto will definitely not be buried with me.  I love the idea of gifting them to a younger person who is excited about them, but has limited capital.  I have so many amazing things that I've inherited from previous generations - that kind of passing things on is really meaningful to me.

[Bruce Pennington]

4 hours ago, John C said:

I've given my wife your info so she'll have a resource when I shed this mortal coil. I'll send you my wife's name so you don't think she's scamming you!!!

 

John C.

It would be my honor, John.  

[Mark S.]

This has been an interesting thread even though some of you seem to like to argue about some really meaningless, silly s**t.  Stop wasting time on silliness guys.  Having said that, and turning back to a more practical response to the OP, I just turned to my wife and asked the “what if” question, and while she is not ‘helpless’, her pause and uncertain answer made me realize I need to create a more ‘concrete’ plan for her to follow.  Lucky for her, I’m a bit anal in my documentation, cataloging, and labeling my modest collections (nihonto, tea ceremony equipment, firearms, etc).  What I will be putting together for her are avenues for her to consider when she is ready to part with my things and a ‘tour’ of the stored items and where documentation is located.  Of course, if given the opportunity, I will part with my collections on my terms.  If not, at least she won’t have to worry about being totally lost.