What type of hamon is this?

[Gerry]

I came across this sword with a peculiar hamon. Does anyone know what this type of hamon is called?

 

It kind of looks like a reverse saka choj.

 

[Lareon]

Saka Choji Midare?

[Lareon]

[Scogg]

I’d say some form of nokogiri-ba or saka choji

 

I have big doubts about the authenticity of this particular blade. Looks like either a fake or something that’s been severely messed with 

 

Just my non-expert opinion from the photos provided. 
-Sam 

[Brian]

A version of Kataochi gunome?

[Lewis B]

13 minutes ago, Scogg said:

I’d say some form of nokogiri-ba or saka choji

 

I have big doubts about the authenticity of this particular blade. Looks like either a fake or something that’s been severely messed with 

 

Just my non-expert opinion from the photos provided. 
-Sam 

I agree. It all looks a little suspect (gut feeling based on a few photos)

[Matsunoki]

Mismatched fittings, saya and ito look brand new. Nakago looks wrong, habaki looks hammered.

What type of hamon?…..my guess a Chinese hamon on a fake blade in a made up Koshirae all designed to fool. 
imo

[Alex A]

Thats one hell of an hamachi.

[Jacques]

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[Alex A]

Good to see Jacques having fun, keep it up.

[Jacques]

4 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Good to see Jacques having fun, keep it up.

  My mistake, no fun here  

[Alex A]

Ok, maybe i got the wrong end of the stick with the 

 

Back to business as usual.

[Alex A]

Ps, Back on track, Gerry, dont buy that sword.

[Rivkin]

Its non traditional to the point I would avoid using any proper nihonto terminology for the sake of preventing confusion. What is also troubling that this definitely new hamon comes with a crudely shaped "suriage" nakago with rather deep patination... purposefully patinated I would say.

[Alex A]

Reminded of the saying “mutton dressed as lamb”

[Sebuh]

kinda looks like somethings wrong with it, looks non traditional, too particular.

[Gerry]

Nah, I have no intention of purchasing this sword...just thought I'd share this unusual looking hamon.

 

And for what it's worth, the sword is actually in Japan with a torokusho, so it's not a Chinese fake.

[Matsunoki]

50 minutes ago, Gerry said:

And for what it's worth, the sword is actually in Japan with a torokusho, so it's not a Chinese fake.

I’m not trying to be smart, this is a genuine question……does it being in Japan with a Torokushi prove its not a fake?

[Brian]

Likely does. Would be illegal otherwise, if it wasn't a Nihonto. And although they have issued some Torokusho to Showato, I don't think there are many fake swords slipping through. Nakago has been greatly altered though. Fittings are genuine. Just an oddball.

[Matsunoki]

Can Torokusho be faked?….maybe for the purpose of selling it?

Again just a genuine question because it’s a subject I know nothing about.

I’d have bet (very) heavily on it being “wrong”!

[Scogg]

56 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

I’m not trying to be smart, this is a genuine question……does it being in Japan with a Torokushi prove its not a fake?

Likewise, I'm being sincere and not trying to be smart. It's my understanding that the intention of Torokusho is to adhere to the sword laws, but that does not mean it's a perfect system. The licensing is done by the education board, and not an entity like the NBTHK.  

https://www.jssus.org/nkp/japanese_sword_laws.html

Personally speaking, it's not something I would put all my faith on, and I trust my eyes first. 
Again, I’m no expert! 
-Sam

[Shugyosha]

2 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Can Torokusho be faked?….maybe for the purpose of selling it?

Again just a genuine question because it’s a subject I know nothing about.

I’d have bet (very) heavily on it being “wrong”!

It doesn’t seem too unlikely: if NBTHK papers can be doctored, a relatively simple proforma that no one outside of Japan can verify, has to be a candidate. 

[Rivkin]

Torokusho is a bizarre system.

USMC sword from 1960s will probably not pass. XIXth century smallsword probably will. WWI German saber - a bit of a gamble.

Its the same with Japanese swords. They are on a lookout for stamped showato, but if its suriage they are not high grade sword experts. They can refuse or they can issue papers.

Its always subjective, I look at pictures and don't know for certain if its modern or just non-traditional thingy from shinshinto or Showa or whatever, and even having the blade in hands it will be more or less a guess.

There are "traditional" shinshinto or gendai blades which if suriage will look showato. Student work of Keith Austin was frankly bland and indistinctive to the point you wondered if its a souvenir rather than nihonto. His late California work - there are impressive pieces. 

 

Plus there is some market in Japan for martial arts grade suriage blades which do not appear to be fully kosher.

 

 

[SteveM]

1 hour ago, Rivkin said:

USMC sword from 1960s will probably not pass. XIXth century smallsword probably will. WWI German saber - a bit of a gamble.

 

None of these swords could be licensed. The licensing system is only for Japanese swords. There was some debate in the early years of the licensing system about whether or not foreign swords should be allowed to be licensed and held in private collections. If I'm not mistaken there was one collector who sued the government because he could not get his antique foreign sword licensed, with the government eventually winning the case. So the defacto position is that only Japanese swords may be licensed. 

[Rivkin]

3 minutes ago, SteveM said:

 

None of these swords could be licensed. The licensing system is only for Japanese swords. There was some debate in the early years of the licensing system about whether or not foreign swords should be allowed to be licensed and held in private collections. If I'm not mistaken there was one collector who sued the government because he could not get his antique foreign sword licensed, with the government eventually winning the case. So the defacto position is that only Japanese swords may be licensed. 

 

I had the registration done for couple of shamshirs and flintlock pistols I owned while in Japan and having to deal with local collectors of non-Japanese items they all had torokusho as well. I did not study the system but the registration did look like ordinary torokusho. 

I however also encountered a number of western swords with sawed off blades the argument being we could not get a torokusho since its non-Japanese. I saw Japanese katanas mounted with European blades (probably ubu mount) with torokusho as well.

[The Forest Ninja]

That Hamon looks like it would result in a weak blade if used in combat. 

[Nobody]

3 hours ago, Rivkin said:

 

I had the registration done for couple of shamshirs and flintlock pistols I owned while in Japan and having to deal with local collectors of non-Japanese items they all had torokusho as well. I did not study the system but the registration did look like ordinary torokusho. 

I however also encountered a number of western swords with sawed off blades the argument being we could not get a torokusho since its non-Japanese. I saw Japanese katanas mounted with European blades (probably ubu mount) with torokusho as well.

 

The registrations of blades and firearms are judged based on each different criterion. As for blades, only genuine Nihonto can be registered.

[Rivkin]

1 hour ago, Nobody said:

 

The registrations of blades and firearms are judged based on each different criterion. As for blades, only genuine Nihonto can be registered.

Intriguing! It has been a while but if I manage to find photos of papers I'll post them to figure out how the registration was done.

[2devnul]

21 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Can Torokusho be faked?….maybe for the purpose of selling it?

 

Anything can be faked, I've seen false NBTHK (much harder to make then a simple Torokusho). That blade looks totally fake/replica. I wouldn't buy it, unless I'm looking for bush-cutter for 100$. 

[Gerry]

Here's another odd hamon...a chicken pox gunome?