Yves Posted December 20, 2023 Report Share Posted December 20, 2023 A question: what characteristics determine the era in which a katana kake was made? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanenaga Posted December 20, 2023 Report Share Posted December 20, 2023 For those interested in katanagake (sword stands/racks), the definitive (pretty much only) work is just hot off the press. https://en.galleryyouyou.com/product-page/西垣-works-of-kanshiro-nishigakiの複製 It's by Ito Mitsuru, who did the definitive books on Higo fittings, and like all his books it's full of gorgeous photos. In Japanese, but English translation is underway. And expensive, but the exchange rate now is very favorable. Les 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curran Posted December 20, 2023 Report Share Posted December 20, 2023 1 hour ago, Yves said: A question: what characteristics determine the era in which a katana kake was made? It is not exactly an exact science. I bought a Japanese red oak 3 sword kake that I guestimated at 1825-1860. I was off by near 1 century. The bottom is dated June 1754. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivkin Posted December 21, 2023 Report Share Posted December 21, 2023 4 hours ago, Yves said: A question: what characteristics determine the era in which a katana kake was made? I think surprisingly the only way to go is by lacquer (shape of gold particles, color etc.). Otherwise even a multi-piece stand is apparently a very conservative form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yves Posted December 21, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2023 The one I'm currently looking at is a 5-sword stand. Has some cracking in the lacquer which seems to indicate old age. Rather bulky type of sides which is different from some of th extensively raden embelished items. There is a painting on it front and back with cherry blossom motive, but it's very modest. Suspect old age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivkin Posted December 21, 2023 Report Share Posted December 21, 2023 58 minutes ago, Yves said: The one I'm currently looking at is a 5-sword stand. Has some cracking in the lacquer which seems to indicate old age. Rather bulky type of sides which is different from some of th extensively raden embelished items. There is a painting on it front and back with cherry blossom motive, but it's very modest. Suspect old age. All this "stuff" by default is Meiji or early Showa. Showa and Heisei lacquer cracks more aggressively than anything old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yves Posted December 21, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2023 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted December 21, 2023 Report Share Posted December 21, 2023 I have someone looking for a high end antique stand, something impressive but pre-modern and not gaudy like some of the abalone inlay pieces flooding the market. This sort looks very nice indeed. Let me know if anyone knows of anything that stands out ('scuse the pun) Doesn't have to take many swords. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yves Posted December 21, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2023 23 minutes ago, Brian said: I have someone looking for a high end antique stand, something impressive but pre-modern and not gaudy like some of the abalone inlay pieces flooding the market. This sort looks very nice indeed. Let me know if anyone knows of anything that stands out ('scuse the pun) Doesn't have to take many swords. Something like this Brian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted December 21, 2023 Report Share Posted December 21, 2023 I'd need to run it past him. But that is quite nice. He liked that one sold from France recently, but it was gone fast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yves Posted December 22, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2023 22 hours ago, Rivkin said: All this "stuff" by default is Meiji or early Showa. Showa and Heisei lacquer cracks more aggressively than anything old. The seller also seems to think it is Showa era. Makes me think there are not a lot of pre-Meiji era katanakake's for sale. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivkin Posted December 22, 2023 Report Share Posted December 22, 2023 That's post war. Yes, pre-1900 are a bit rare and expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PNSSHOGUN Posted December 22, 2023 Report Share Posted December 22, 2023 Does anyone know why the price of these went (and continues to be) absolutely insane a few years ago? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yves Posted December 23, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2023 23 hours ago, Rivkin said: That's post war. Yes, pre-1900 are a bit rare and expensive. Looks to me it is nearly impossible to date any of these within a reasonable amount of accuracy. (not this one, but in general) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted December 23, 2023 Report Share Posted December 23, 2023 As for lacquered Kake, you would need to be educated on the artwork "style" to try and date them. Was curious and think you could learn a lot more from books and studying other Japanese items of the era. Anyways "Most Japanese lacquerware shares similar styles, motifs and forms regardless of its date of manufacture. This can make date attribution difficult. Edo and Meiji era (pre-1912) Japanese lacquerware designs often have a slightly stiffer and more formal appearance, even when portraying naturalistic scenes. However, by the time of the Taisho and Showa eras (1912 onwards), decoration becomes very subtlety looser and freer in execution due to Western artistic influence. Another dating hint is when a distinctly non-Japanese artistic style is employed. For example, Art Deco design elements would suggest an early 20th century origin. Japanese lacquerware was also produced in different forms over the decades. For example, incense boxes and Inro (a Japanese wallet for use with kimonos) are indicative of Edo or Meiji era 19th century lacquer-work. While still notoriously tough to date, all of these clues used together can help to properly attribute Japanese lacquerware." https://www.antiques...apanese-lacquerware/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yves Posted December 23, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2023 1 hour ago, Alex A said: As for lacquered Kake, you would need to be educated on the artwork "style" to try and date them. Was curious and think you could learn a lot more from books and studying other Japanese items of the era. Anyways "Most Japanese lacquerware shares similar styles, motifs and forms regardless of its date of manufacture. This can make date attribution difficult. Edo and Meiji era (pre-1912) Japanese lacquerware designs often have a slightly stiffer and more formal appearance, even when portraying naturalistic scenes. However, by the time of the Taisho and Showa eras (1912 onwards), decoration becomes very subtlety looser and freer in execution due to Western artistic influence. Another dating hint is when a distinctly non-Japanese artistic style is employed. For example, Art Deco design elements would suggest an early 20th century origin. Japanese lacquerware was also produced in different forms over the decades. For example, incense boxes and Inro (a Japanese wallet for use with kimonos) are indicative of Edo or Meiji era 19th century lacquer-work. While still notoriously tough to date, all of these clues used together can help to properly attribute Japanese lacquerware." https://www.antiques...apanese-lacquerware/ Thanks Alex. I'm afraid I don't have the time to really study this in depth (plus I don't read Japanese), although I can see why this would be of interest. I have ordered myself a new set of swords from a Japanese smith (daisho) and they come with their respective shirasayas. I want to be able to display them and thus I would need something with a minimum of 4 tiers. As the swords are not cheap I want to have something that is fitting for them. Preferably not bulky but very fine in finishing and detail. Obviously I would immediately end up with something pre-Meiji. The following is also a very fine example, but way to expensive for my taste (costs as much as one of my swords actually) https://www.nipponto...swords6/ET560210.htm 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivkin Posted December 23, 2023 Report Share Posted December 23, 2023 30 minutes ago, Yves said: Thanks Alex. I'm afraid I don't have the time to really study this in depth (plus I don't read Japanese), although I can see why this would be of interest. I have ordered myself a new set of swords from a Japanese smith (daisho) and they come with their respective shirasayas. I want to be able to display them and thus I would need something with a minimum of 4 tiers. As the swords are not cheap I want to have something that is fitting for them. Preferably not bulky but very fine in finishing and detail. Obviously I would immediately end up with something pre-Meiji. The following is also a very fine example, but way to expensive for my taste (costs as much as one of my swords actually) https://www.nipponto...swords6/ET560210.htm That looks like a typical Taisho period or about work. Lacquer is datable, first and foremost because the methods of processing gold (or yellow colored alternatives) changed, the wood changed somewhat and in some cases the composition is a bit different. There is a percentage of items which are not datable beyond "Edo period". 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yves Posted December 23, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2023 20 minutes ago, Rivkin said: That looks like a typical Taisho period or about work. Lacquer is datable, first and foremost because the methods of processing gold (or yellow colored alternatives) changed, the wood changed somewhat and in some cases the composition is a bit different. There is a percentage of items which are not datable beyond "Edo period". I do find taka-maki-e made by a certain Kajikawa (if the description is correct) associated with Late 18 - early 19th century https://www.metmuseu...lection/search/45440 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivkin Posted December 23, 2023 Report Share Posted December 23, 2023 13 minutes ago, Yves said: I do find taka-maki-e made by a certain Kajikawa (if the description is correct) associated with Late 18 - early 19th century https://www.metmuseu...lection/search/45440 Kajikawa is a school and family. 90% of their work is from roughly 1820-1880 though earlier pieces are known. I feel like the katana stand is later than this, late Meiji or Taishi. I think they did not work after that but might be wrong. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yves Posted December 23, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2023 17 minutes ago, Rivkin said: Kajikawa is a school and family. 90% of their work is from roughly 1820-1880 though earlier pieces are known. I feel like the katana stand is later than this, late Meiji or Taishi. I think they did not work after that but might be wrong. Thanks. Anyway, although I like the piece, it's too expensive for my taste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted December 23, 2023 Report Share Posted December 23, 2023 The Chicken Kake is very nice Yves. Sure you will find something suitable, Not looked around for these for a long time but good ones used to turn up quite regularly. Very hard to date Ps, was looking over these 3 MODERN on Aoi. Condition is obviously one thing to consider. The other things that may differentiate from real old Kake is the elaborate designs, but what do i know. https://www.aoijapan...m/sword-stand-ittei/ https://www.aoijapan...m/sword-stand-oukyo/ https://www.aoijapan...d-furodo-ryuya-saku/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Posted December 23, 2023 Report Share Posted December 23, 2023 Would someone give me the Kanji for katana kake. I'll do a search on buyee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yves Posted December 23, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2023 33 minutes ago, Stephen said: Would someone give me the Kanji for katana kake. I'll do a search on buyee. 刀掛け 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Posted December 23, 2023 Report Share Posted December 23, 2023 Found older and nicer on ebay Except when searching high to low https://buyee.jp/item/search/query/刀掛け?translationType=1&sort=cbids&order=d&page=1&searchHis=1 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yves Posted December 23, 2023 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2023 1 hour ago, Stephen said: Found older and nicer on ebay Except when searching high to low https://buyee.jp/item/search/query/刀掛け?translationType=1&sort=cbids&order=d&page=1&searchHis=1 Thanks. For some reason, I cannot open the link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Posted December 23, 2023 Report Share Posted December 23, 2023 https://search.yahoo.co.jp/shopping?p=刀掛け&ei=UTF-8&fr=sush&ml=view%3Agrid%3Bsort%3Arelevance%3Bq%3A刀掛け%3Bprop%3Aec_pdlist%3Bcvpk%3A928_1%2C78_2%2C918_1%2C923_2%2C914_1%2C895_1%2C934_2%2C104_1%2C939_1%2C930_1%2C840_1%2C921_1%2C907_1%3B&nasb=1 Maybe just yahoo not on buyee I don't know how to search high to low ther Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrentC Posted December 29, 2023 Report Share Posted December 29, 2023 Just rec'd my copy of katanagake, It's impressive. Almost 400 pages of beautiful examples each one with a brief description in English. Looking forward to the companion volume in English coming soon. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yves Posted January 11 Author Report Share Posted January 11 A question: I was always of the opinion that the tabs holding the sword on a katanakake should be at the same level. Just came across one where this wasn't the case on the lower 2. One side is lower as if the sides were somehow inverted (impossible as the middle section is connected into the wood). Any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthlaker Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 On 12/30/2023 at 9:54 AM, BrentC said: Just rec'd my copy of katanagake, It's impressive. Almost 400 pages of beautiful examples each one with a brief description in English. Looking forward to the companion volume in English coming soon. @BrentC, do you have a link please where it may state when the english companion volume will be released? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toryu2020 Posted March 27 Report Share Posted March 27 Mark - the information came from Itoh Sensei himself - there is a team working on the translation, no ETA currently so no links to follow just yet... -t 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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