What to classify this boshi?

[george trotter]

Hi all,

I have a 1944 RJT blade by Nagao Kunishiro of Aomori Ken. He worked in Bizen style.

I would like your learned comments on this boshi (sorry the polish is so dirty).

I have previously considered this pattern but am uneasy about its correct name - can members help?

I have now  called it  togari ko-maru (pointed small circle return)...is this accurate?

Also, what to call the "abrupt" end to the return?

 

Also - as you will notice, there is muneyaki a but further down - blade also has tobiyaki and hitatsura.

regards,

[Nihontocollector752]

Could be a form of Jizo boshi

 

Try for some light reading on the Markus Sesko site, he covers all the basics and then some.

 

https://markussesko.com/2015/06/10/kantei-3-hamon-boshi-3/

 

After a polish it might lean more to a Mishina boshi?

[george trotter]

Hi Jimmy, thanks,

Yes I have checked the Sesko site and observed both Mishina and Jizo boshi, but wonder if this one fits either one exactly?

What would members name this?

 

Sorry about the polish...sword was in a shed for decades and had been a bit mis-handled by kids...but still OK.

I never got it repolished as I am not happy with modern polish...rather have a dirty original than a 'post war trend' polish...just doesn't fit IMHO.

 

[george trotter]

I have had another look through the books and as you say Jimmy it looks like a Mishina version of a Jizo-boshi.

I had considered this before and am happy to return to it now....but before I make a final decision, maybe the members could offer a comment or two?

Regards,

[PNSSHOGUN]

Perhaps Notare Komi?

[george trotter]

Thanks John...just to clarify, if I have got you right, you have classified this picture?...the photo above is not really notare....closer to this drawing of a non-notare togari example.

In fact, mine is really this one but with the shorter, abruptly ending kaeri (except that mine is not this togari (pointed), but closer to a small headed Jizo)...see my problem?

[Brian]

George,
Your call looks like a fair one to me.

 

[george trotter]

Thanks Brian,

I am leaning much loser to classing it as a Mishina version of a Jizo-boshi....which is what a Mishina boshi is - just the Mishina school version of a Jizo.

Although my guy is a Bizen oriented smith, there is no reason why he would always stick to the Bizen boshi - mostly versions of the sansaku boshi (your chart top row 4 from left).

So, thanks again.

Always happy to hear more opinion folks...

[Nihontocollector752]

So the issue here is that we are discussing a relatively modern sword, but trying to bucket it into a traditional classification, like Bizen, etc. The problem with that is simply the more modern sword smiths would not just adhere to traditional forging but add in their own interpretation or experiments. Is it Jizo based boshi, yes in my opinion, but what was the smiths intention, we will never know. Perhaps delving more into his training, what were his traditional focusus, Bizen, Soshu? Then if his intention here was something new?

[george trotter]

Not really trying to bucket it into a tradition, as there are as you say, considerable numbers of 'varieties' in gendai blades, especially from those under pressure to make a minimum of 10 blades/month in the RJT scheme. All I really wanted was feedback on the closest term to use to describe this boshi. I also think Jizo, but maybe Mishina version of Jizo boshi, but would like to hear opinions.

[george trotter]

Hmmm....not much happening here, so may I annoy you one more time?

I think this might be the answer I'm looking for.

Here is a boshi from Iimura's 'TOKEN YORAN. 1980 p.347.

The description just says Kaeri  Katashi (return tight)?

Can this be called ko-maru kaeri katashi (small circle with tight return ? (blunt/short return?).

Any comments?

Thanks

 

Okay - several hours have passed - I think I have it (slow I know - duuh!).

Anyway, simplest classification is from Nakahara 'Japanese Swords' p.160 fig 238

Ko-Maru, Kaeri-Yoru = small circle, kaeri ends abruptly (rather squarely) see new sketch. This fits Mishina and others discussed. I think I'll stick with this...I'll leave now.

[Bugyotsuji]

Have enjoyed following your thought processes, George. 

 

It is important to remember too that Japanese texts will often avoid absolutes, and if a definition box does not fit precisely, add softening or escape words like 'a touch/suggestion of, somewhat/rather/...x,y,z-like', etc.　

尖り心 togari-gokoro, for example.

[george trotter]

Thanks Piers, yes, an interesting little journey...a bit unusual for me to 'open it up' for NMB discussion, but I thought it would be of interest to members and I was interested to hear members' opinions.

And yes, regarding the Japanese text avoidance of absolute statements, I did this little exercise with that in mind... I think I am happy at last with this classification 'ko-maru kaeri-yoru' as it is factual, but still leaves room for discussion of 'ko' and/or 'togari' and Mishina, midare etc..on other boshi compared with this one.

So fun for me (sorry to bore other members)...and yes, I know some must be thinking the blade deserves a polish, but you know my paranoia about modern polish.

Oh and speaking of modern polish, I have seen references to boshi with togari-gokoro but the kesho polish makesit  hard to see. The several I saw were all different, but all termed as 'becoming togari-gokoro...maybe a pic/drawing or 2 Piers? (just to help us learn).

Thanks again to all who commented.

 

[george trotter]

OK, one last try...as Piers says above, the Japanese use a number of 'sort of' words when describing features, so I though I'd ask the NMB 'straight shooters' their assessments.

Here is a drawing of what is essentially the exact same boshi as on my sword above (my kaeri is maybe a tad shorter). This was in Hawley 'Japanese Swordsmiths' 1967 vol. 2 p,682 (blue books).

Unfortunately it is a on a drawing of a sword blade kikusui hamon so this boshi is not described in any way....soooo, can I ask those here who have knowledge, how they would describe this sword in Japanese boshi terms? (with English translation?).

Thanks.

 

[george trotter]

Just a bump...any description?

[Brian]

Not sure everything fits into neat little boxes, or if there are names for every random feature.
I think sometimes you just have to squeeze it into one of the generic terms in the pic above.

[george trotter]

Thanks Brian,

Yes, I think you are right. You and Piers have both pointed towards remembering that Japanese texts often differ from each other.

I think it is pretty obvious that the membership also is reluctant to make any BOLD statement on it as any firm declaration is almost certain to be contradicted in existing or future publications....wise choice. Probably wise for me to be wise too.

I think then, after more searching and thinking, I will keep it simple and class my boshi as:

Ko-Maru with short, sturdy Kaeri-yoru.

 

I think that covers it....

Thanks,

I'll let it rest now...

[WillFalstaff]

Call it the George Boshi 

[O koumori]

George,

Interesting discussion!

I hesitate to ask - especially in view of your feelings about modern polishes - but here goes- 

Can a togishi open a 'window' on the boshi?

 

Thanks,

Dan K

 

[ROKUJURO]

George,

a firm classification would of course be much easier if the blade was in good polish. As it is now, there could remain a little doubt, whatever term you use.

And if I may ask: Looking at your last photo, is there MUNE-YAKI going some way down? May be an effect of the condition of the blade or the photo?

[Jean]

Taking into account the size of the kissaki, the question should be: can a togishi polish only the kissaki (and not the boshi).

 

The answer is yes of course.

[george trotter]

Thank you guys....interesting comments.

First Will...yes I think George Boshi is OK, after all there was a guy down your way who collected Bushes, and they made him President of the USA...ha ha.

 

And Dan...I understand what you ask, but even without a 'window' I can see enough of it to assess it (as I have)...only the 'varying' vocab of 'correct terms' is the hangup.

 

And Jean, yes, it would be great if it was in clean WWII polish, but sadly, it is dirty (sigh). And yes, definitely a patch of muneyaki there behind the end of the kaeri. The very active blade has tobiyaki and hitatsura, also.

 

So guys, good stuff, I appreciate your comments.

Regards,

 

P.S. On re-polish. I think maybe one influence on my 'attitude' to re-polish is that post-war hadori is sooo 'out of place' with the characteristics of WWII polish. I think my distaste for 'out of place' polish etc is partly due to the fact I collect WWII RJT gunto - to me they are high class weapons of war (the last sword actually made for war), so they, and their polish is history (You can see I was 30 years at local State Museum here) so I prefer a 90% perfect WWII polish over a 100% perfect hadori...To me, hadori is like putting a solar panel on a 70 year old Sherman tank. Hope this all makes sense (I'm not crazy). I collect the beauty/quality of WWII era gendaito, and that includes keeping it in original polish if possible...if in dire need of a repolish, I would stick with sashikomi. (note: this is not to say other views on hadori are wrong, just what I think...I can certainly tolerate different views ...as my mother would say "I'm sooo tolerant, I ache".

 

One last PS...feel free to say what you think the little 'kinked/crooked circle' feature in the ko-maru is called (several of my books show it, but do not name it).

 

Regards,

[george trotter]

On 1/30/2022 at 11:08 PM, george trotter said:

 

I think then, after more searching and thinking, I will keep it simple and class my boshi as:

Ko-Maru with short, sturdy Kaeri-yoru.

 

I think that covers it....

Thanks,

I'll let it rest now...

Ummm...sorry, can't leave it alone.

Checking dictionaries etc and hamon pics I think I will abandon the word "kaeri-yoru" and go back to the the word "kaeri-katai or  katashi".

Ko-maru Kaeri-katai essentially means "a small tight circle with short return" (check pic & drawing on my Saturday post above).

If any of our native Japanese speakers would like to agree/disagree/correct etc...they would be welcome.

 

Regards,

[Geraint]

Dear George.

 

Late to the party but just some thoughts.  The boshi is essentially what happens to the hamon within the kissaki, and of course down the mune of the blade.  As such any description usually specifies three things; the hamon running along the ha, the return and the way the return finishes at the mune.  For exmple, midare with ko maru and taki- othoshi kaeri.

 

When these three coincide into a particular form which becomes the distinguishing feaure for a school then it gets named, e.g. Mishina boshi, Sansaku boshi and so forth.

 

Given the sword in question it is unlikely to conform to one of the school specific forms, and even if it did then that would to guarantee a connection to that school.

 

Hope this helps.

 

All the best.

[george trotter]

Thanks Geraint...yes makes sense of course. In my case the kaeri is not taki-otoshi kaeri (waterfall) - mine stops abruptly  - the temper on the mune of mine is a separate spot of muneyaki.

My major difficulty has been identifying the correct descriptive words for my boshi...I feel it is ko-maru kaeri katai ...any comment?

Regards,

 

[Geraint]

I would think that all you have to do is describe the hamon in the kissaki now.

All the best.

[george trotter]

18 hours ago, Geraint said:

I would think that all you have to do is describe the hamon in the kissaki now.

All the best.

Not sure what you mean Geraint? 

[vajo]

Maybe a conclusion is made. I want to give my two cent 

 

It looks from your pictures like a notare komi for me. 

[Geraint]

Dear George.

 

I think Chris has done it, so what we have is notare komi boshi with ko maru and, a phrase I'm not familiar with, kaeri katai.

 

This describes the three elements of the boshi.

 

All the best.

[george trotter]

Chris and Geraint,

Yes there is some very mild  notare (VERY mild)...I think you are right to say it could be termed as mild notare komi.

I am prepared to class it as that.

Thank you.

Regards,

PS, Geraint, I show the image of kaeri katai/katashi on my post Jan 27 above...it basically means the return is tight/short (I think)