Tsuba casting molds ?

[Spartancrest]

On 6/15/2025 at 6:27 PM, ROKUJURO said:

I find it very unreasonable to believe that an 'unfinished' TSUBA was sold/released from a workshop

It does happen - and can even end up in a museum collection or being published.

[OceanoNox]

5 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Once again, your opinions are not corroborated with references, pictures, or web links (just like so many others’ opinions on this thread).

 

Dan, you are being dishonest here, and I am being polite.

 

The very first photo in the "Silver ring in tsubas" (https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/52786-silver-ring-in-tsubas/#comment-551308) is taken at an angle, and there is nothing in the surface roughness indicating casting, rather it is a look one could easily obtain during forging.

 

My opinion is corroborated with more than 10 years working in research in mechanical and metallurgical engineering, reading actual academic research on the topic of tsuba (as well as period documents, when possible), and trying my hand at the different DOCUMENTED techniques of tsuba making. And if you are looking through my commenting history, you would see the links or references I have posted (I am even the one who posted the research report for the archeological find of cast soft metal tsuba in Nara). If anything, I always try to give a reference to support my opinion.

 

5 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Perhaps those individuals don’t want to subject every tsuba they sell to the expense of non-invasive metallurgical testing to guarantee to the buyer that the tsuba they are selling is hand forged and not cast iron?

Do it then. Find one of these supposed antique cast iron tsuba, and have the tests made. Or send them to me to do it. I have access to X-ray, electronic microscope with chemical analysis, and micro-hardness (not quite non-invasive, but still considered relatively non-destructive, if you can bear a barely visible indent). Put your money where your mouth is and do the analysis, instead of telling others that they are close-minded and scared, then taking offense at being called out.

I am doing it. I had an idea about tsuba research, and my students and I are doing the calculations and experiments to see it through. It's not cutting edge, it's probably not very noteworthy, but we are doing what's necessary to find out if we are right or not.

[Brian]

Here's what you tend to do Dan. You throw out some vague theory on a random tsuba, you make some unwarranted claim. Then when people dispute it and don't agree, you go "Well, prove I'm wrong. Unless we send it for testing, I guess we'll never know" and claim the "mystery" is unsolved. Except there is no mystery, aside from your throwing out a theory on that particular tsuba. 
No-one sees a cast tsuba there. But because you make a claim, it's up to us to prove it wrong?
Simple fact...anything that can be done, will have been done at some point by someone. That's why you find swords with bizarre shapes and styles sometimes. There are always smiths who want to play with something new. No doubt there is someone or some small group out there that wanted to see if they could cast tsuba way back. However, using that as proof that cast tsuba were routinely done way back hundreds of years, and that the Japanese just mysteriously forgot to document it in their thousands of books is naive at best.
We have books and manuscripts and documents from hundreds of years ago. You think they all got together to invent a conspiracy and hide the info?
But you've gone beyond simply trying to find proof of cast tsuba. Now you just take random items posted by people, see what you want, and start a discussion around how that proves your theory. Forgetting that the item itself hasn't been determined to be cast, you act like it has been, and then proceed to use it as proof of your theory.
The West isn't going to make some brand new discovery around Nihonto that the Japanese themselves haven't already investigated decades ago. But I think you're determined to somehow "leave your mark" and make some revelation that no-one else thought of.
Throwing out theories about posted pics isn't going to do that. And it confuses the heck out of newcomers who come here to learn established facts. 

[ROKUJURO]

12 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

It does happen - and can even end up in a museum collection or being published.

Dale,

I know they exist. But not in numbers. There are even unhardened and unfinished sword-blades sometimes. 

But I think you cannot use this to describe features of TSUBA when your limited knowledge does not allow for more reasonable explanations.

This way one may end up with the Aliens who built the pyramids..... 

[Spartancrest]

13 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

This way one may end up with the Aliens who built the pyramids..... 

Aliens with whips - big whips!   You can get a lot done if the whips are big enough

[Alex A]

13 hours ago, Scogg said:

Dan, I think the main issue is that we're all going in circles. 
 

 

-Sam

 

Nail on head, Sam.

 

I became dizzy many pages back.

 

[Curran]

15 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

This way one may end up with the Aliens who built the pyramids..... 

 

And the Predators built the Ziggurats?

Just so we are clear on the matter. The topic is more interesting to me.  

 

Then we can all mostly get along with terminology and parameters.

 

(Just in case it isn't clear, I'm trying to make a joke. I know I would starve if my career were 'Comedian'.)

[zanilu]

Chemical trails, aliens at area 51, flat hearth, cast tsuba everywhere and now the dealers conspiracy...

They sound the same to me.

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello again (and after this short post it will be goodbye again!).

 

I think that most members only read the last couple of pages or the last couple of posts on this thread.

 

If a member has the time and inclination to read this entire thread, I think they will learn much valuable information and insights.

 

Not only about the possibility of cast iron tsuba being made in the Edo period, but also about how this forum operates.

 

Onward!

[ROKUJURO]

[zanilu]

16 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

I think that most members only read the last couple of pages or the last couple of posts on this thread.

Dan

 

Unfortunately for me I have red all the thread from it's beginning. The first few pages were interesting enough. After that it was just you trying to shove your view down our throats. But I persisted in reading this thread just to see to how deep you will go and dig to prove your point.

 

As we say in Italy we would say "Arrampicarsi sugli specchi" that is a figurative way of saying "arguing on the impossibile", in english should be something like "clutch at straws". 

 

Every one is entitled to have is own delusions but not to force people  to accept them. This thread is a waste of bits.

 

Regards

Luca

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Luca!  I am back again because I couldn't let your post go unanswered.

 

Well, since you stated that you have read all of my thread from the beginning then you know all of the belittling, berating, and ridiculing that I have endured.

 

Then you go right on and continue the ridiculing (and let us not forget the word delusions that you used in your post)!

 

You stated something like I have shoved my views down the throats of people and that I am forcing people to accept my views.

 

All I have ever tried to do on this thread is present my thoughts (usually backed up with references or resources or pictures or weblinks) that support what is my belief in the possibility that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period.

 

As far as you saying that I have shoved my views down the throats of people and forced them to accept my views, you are mistaken.

 

No one has to accept anything, and if they feel I am forcing my views down their throats (as you stated) they can either spit or swallow.  Their choice.

[zanilu]

I have no more time to waste arguing with you Dan.

 

I will not play your game.

 

Luca

[Alex A]

Edit

 

Dont want to say what i want to say in case it upsets folks.

 

Horses for courses.

 

PS, for any newbies with their heads spinning by all this, go back to what Ford Hallam stated and stick with that. 

 

 

 

 

[Curran]

On 6/20/2025 at 8:10 AM, zanilu said:

 "Arrampicarsi sugli specchi" that is a figurative way of saying "arguing on the impossibile", in english should be something like "clutch at straws". 

 

"Arrampicar(si)"  . New verb to me.

I'd say "arguing with yourself in the mirror". [or beating yourself up in the mirror?]

 

I've long been tired of this thread.      I'll consult with Brian about locking it.

For now, posts stay up. I don't want to be censuring any more than I must.

--- Everyone go back to their corners and sit down  ---. Don't make me power up the cattle-prod.

 

[ROKUJURO]

Curran,

what a wonderful threat! 

[Dan tsuba]

No need to power up the cattle prod!

 

I started this thread, let me end it.

 

Then Brian can lock this thread.

 

So, what the nonbelievers of cast iron tsuba being made in the Edo period are saying is that there were no cast iron tsuba made until after the end of the Edo period (1868).  They are saying that no cast iron tsuba were made during the Edo period.

 

That means that all the craftsmen of tsuba got together and decided to wait until the end of the Edo period before making a cast iron tsuba and then they all said “yeah, let’s go ahead and make cast iron tsuba now”!

 

Come on.  Do you really believe that?

 

The more plausible explanation being that at least 40 years (just guessing here - and my guess is derived from other posts and references stated in this thread) before the end of the Edo period cast iron tsuba were being made.

 

Those cast iron tsuba could have been mounted on swords (as many old cast iron tsuba shown in this thread have sekigane in the nakago-ana or are shown mounted on swords) or they could have been made for the tourist trade.

 

The point being that cast iron tsuba were being made in the Edo period.

 

Now the administrator can lock this thread.

 

[Curran]

Locking threads should probably be reserved for when things totally go off the rails or get too troglodyte and troll.

 

This thread has gotten very long at 21pgs.

My personal opinion is that it has become a time sink hole.

I'd appeal to the fellow members here to move onto something else.

 

 

[DirkO]

Also letting either side have the last word as if it were a definitive conclusion might be a bad idea - ideally one of the admins would do a post summarizing the different views and then lock it. 

[Brian]

Then we get accused of censoring any potential future "findings" or evidence. Nah, leave it to slowly bury itself.

[Curran]

1 hour ago, Brian said:

Then we get accused of censoring any potential future "findings" or evidence. Nah, leave it to slowly bury itself.

 

I agree with Brian.

Any summarizing might get accused of auditing / censoring.

 

 

[zanilu]

Non ragioniam di lor, ma guarda e passa...

[Spartancrest]

I think this is the first [?] thread that has garnered so much response just from the idea of shutting it down! 

 

Non posso lasciar passare questo senza commentare . . .

PS. Why do people choose to write in languages that are one click away from Google translate? [You need to be more creative - how about Morse code?] 

 

.. / -.-. .- -. - / .-.. . - / - .... .. ... / .--. .- ... ... / .-- .. - .... --- ..- - / -.-. --- -- -- . -. -

[ROKUJURO]

Dale,

I am not sure that so much traffic was caused by the wish to shut the thread down. In my opinion, it is more the concern of many responsible members that so much nonsense should not remain uncontradicted in an otherwise highly competent and specialized forum.

But I have come to the insight that the whole discussion has nothing to do with Japanese culture or TSUBA. It is a psycho-pathological thing about being perceived and accepted (even in the form of "friction"), but this forum cannot offer therapy. 

[Dan tsuba]

Well, to finally address some of Jean’s last post.

 

He stated-

 

“But I have come to the insight that the whole discussion has nothing to do with Japanese culture or TSUBA.”

 

I, on the other hand, think this whole thread and discussion has everything to do with TSUBA.

 

I will refrain from answering the other parts of his post since the last time I did that my post was eliminated and I received a warning and a 7-day suspension on the forum.

 

Onward!

[Dan tsuba]

Well, here is something of interest.

From a recent thread on the forum-

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/53444-questi?on/

The frog tsuba in that thread appears to be cast iron (picture attached).

Edo period?  Not Edo period?

Who knows!

Just some more interesting stuff to consider.

Onward my friends!

 

[Dan tsuba]

I saw this information about the frog motif tsuba (shown above) on this other thread-

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/53444-question/#comment-561175

 

(some of the information from a post by Spartancrest)-

 

“Found in the Museum of Vancouver DB 403.

They state: The iron plate of this tsuba was cast not forged.  No signature is legible.

The Museum also states:   DATE OF USE  17th or 18th century.  So, they believe it was made in the Edo period.   [Let the arguments commence! :)]”.

 

I know many members will think (and state?) that the museum could be wrong.

But maybe the museum could be right in their assessment?

Who knows, just some more interesting stuff about cast iron tsuba.

 

[Brian]

Show me their "expert" and where he studied Nihonto and tsuba manufacture methods. As far as I know, no museum has a Nihonto expert on board aside from Marcus, and their "experts" are at the level of the mid level member here.
Not like they have access to info we don't have. In fact, probably far less.

[MauroP]

Dan, please go here and read all the stuff...

 

https://www.openmovportal.ca/argus/final/Portal/Main.aspx?component=AAFG&record=a7450643-c397-4d2e-a9a6-0cea5b180791

Edited September 8, 2025 by MauroP
wrong link

[Dan tsuba]

Well Mauro,

I went to the site you stated and found that frog motif tsuba.

Part of the description from the museum is shown below-

 

"Date of Use-

17th or 18th Century

 

The iron plate of this tsuba was cast not forged.

 

PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION

Iron; roughly oval; frog carved in the round in relief; no signature legible.

 

MATERIAL

metal, copper

metal, silver alloy (?)

 

TECHNIQUE

cast

chased

engraved

pierced”

 

I have included the pictures of the tsuba below from the other thread.

 

Now, to me, that is a cast iron tsuba that has been overcleaned so it appears more silver in color (as overcleaned iron tsuba tend to do).

 

Just my opinion!