Tsuba casting molds ?

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Derek!

 

Thanks for your opinions, again much appreciated!

 

In part of your post, you stated-

 

“However, from what I’ve read, if I were to make a guess, the Edo period was a time of peace, and they didn’t need to make tsuba in bulk as they did in earlier periods. During the Edo period, tsuba became more like jewelry—something to make one stand out. Additionally, tsuba makers had much more time to practice their craft and come up with new ideas. So, I believe tsuba makers invested their time in quality rather than rushing their work. That was probably the best way to attract new customers. If they had made cast iron tsuba, I’m sure clients would have noticed the difference, and none of them would have wanted to lose customers.

 

So, maybe they did, or maybe they didn’t. And quite honestly, it doesn’t matter much”

 

Well, I don’t know.

 

I figure not everyone could afford a tsuba that was a work of art, so maybe some craftsmen made cast iron tsuba to appeal to the less wealthy?

 

Also, I think this subject of if cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period does matter (and is of interest) to many people as witnessed by the number of views on this thread.

 

I have found out over the years that there are many people that look at and read a thread or posts without participating in that thread.  They are interested in the subject, but (for whatever reason) just don’t wish to participate or get involved. 

 

Anyway, just my opinion.

 

Onward!

 

[Dereks]

2 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

I figure not everyone could afford a tsuba that was a work of art, so maybe some craftsmen made cast iron tsuba to appeal to the less wealthy?

 

I have found out over the years that there are many people that look at and read a thread or posts without participating in that thread.  They are interested in the subject, but (for whatever reason) just don’t wish to participate or get involved. 

 

Anyway, just my opinion.

 

Onward!

 

 

Brainstorming about hundreds of years back is not the right way to prove this. Then I could say "If they couldn't afford a new one, they probably bought second hand..and they added some copper stuff(sorry i don't know it's name) to seppa dai and made it fit to their swords" 

 

Maybe some people did try to make cast iron tsuba during the Edo period but found them to be very fragile, so they stopped. And let’s say you came across some of those early experimental pieces—there you have it: an Edo-period cast iron tsuba. So what? Is it really going to change anything?

 

Right now, people with so much more experience than me says they didn't see any cast iron tsuba from the EDO period. If I'm going to contradict them, I need something solid. To do that, I need years of experience. So, as of this moment, who am i to do that. 

 

Even if I look at hundreds of tsuba on Google and post some pictures here that appear to be cast iron, they’ll ask me to prove it—and I won’t be able to. And I’m not going to contradict or fight them just because they have a different opinion. 

 

If I need to prove this, I’ll need time and access to the required information. And I won’t be finding that information in English books or websites. As I said, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter much(for me). I'd rather spending my time learning what is already available and better.

 

Thanks

[Dan tsuba]

The Truth Is Out There-

 

But those old Japanese texts that may contain insights into the question of cast iron tsuba being made in the Edo period probably won’t be translated from Japanese to English, figured out and collated in my lifetime!

 

Nothing can be proven until an inexpensive non-invasive metallurgical test to discern between cast iron and hand forged iron comes along!  Which also probably won't happen in my lifetime!

 

Otherwise, it will always be said that it is just everybody’s best guess and opinions about whether cast iron tsuba were not made or were made in the Edo period.

 

And let us not forget that if a tsuba collector spends a lot of money for a Edo period piece that they think is hand forged (or maybe was even described as hand forged) and then perhaps finds out later that it is actually cast iron;  I think that would be a negative experience for the collector!

 

But this has all been stated before, somewhere on this thread!

 

Onward!

[Dan tsuba]

I just can't help posting papered tsuba that appear that they were cast!

Below is a tsuba that is papered.

What do you think?

Cast iron or not?

I have circled the questionable areas in red that appear as casting flaws (maybe you can find other casting flaws?).

Would a hand forged and carved tusba have those flaws?

Onward!

 

[Guest When Necessary]

3 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

Would a hand forged and carved tusba have those flaws?

 

Hi Dan,

 

You just don't seem to get it that a real big part of the attraction of a hand forged piece of ironwork IS the flaws - the visual evidence of the artist's sweat and labor. Creativity and artistry born out of iron, fire and anvil.

Why do you think nobody collects wrought iron railings? 

 

I do respect your interest in this field but it honestly feels like you're trying to ram it down everyone else's throats.

 

Just sayin'

Dee

[Brian]

Dan,
Do me a favour please. Take a confirmed (modern copy is fine) cast tsuba, take a punch, and punch around the nakago ana heavily to deform the metal like many of these you post.
Tell us if the metal deforms nicely and changes shape, or if it crumbles and bits fall off.

[ROKUJURO]

Brian,

any piece of scrap cast iron would do the job for this test, you wouldn't even need a TSUBA!

But this would then mean real research and learning.....painful for some. 

[Dan tsuba]

Hi all!

So, Dee in her post stated-

 

“I do respect your interest in this field but it honestly feels like you're trying to ram it down everyone else's throats.”

 

Just trying to point out that I think there were other methods and alternate ways of making tsuba in the Edo period besides hand forging.

 

Maybe this thread may keep a collector from spending a small fortune on something that turns out later to be cast iron.

 

It has always come down to non-invasive metallurgical testing (which is too expensive to do nowadays).  So, developing a good eye may be the only way to determine cast from hand forged.

 

Also, it has been stated (somewhere in the beginning or middle of this thread) how cast iron can be annealed to make it less brittle.  Then it could be re-heated, so maybe tagane-ato punch marks could be done on cast iron?

 

The lasl couple of posts have asked me to do a punch mark or hammer test on cast iron.  Of course doing that the results would be obvious, the piece would crack and break.

 

How about those that asked me to conduct that test do a test of their own?

 

Take a piece of cast iron.  Anneal it.  Then re-heat it and try to put tagane-ato punch marks in it.  

 

Remembering that some of these tsuba craftsmen were specialists (maybe going back 2 to 6 generations (?) or more in some families) in heating and working metals.  I would figure that they knew a lot more than anybody else does that makes a tsuba today.

 

Onward!

 

 

[Scogg]

A real test would be nice. So far this is all just been pictures, ideas, and theories. 

 

If you find a tsuba you speculate is cast, how do you then determine it was made in the edo period? More speculation? 
 

It’s fine to speculate, but 16 pages of it without anything deeper to back it up… for what? 
 

Is this all just for your Amazon book? 

 

 

[Guest When Necessary]

1 hour ago, GeorgeLuucas said:

A real test would be nice. So far this is all just been pictures, ideas, and theories. 

 

If you find a tsuba you speculate is cast, how do you then determine it was made in the edo period? More speculation? 
 

It’s fine to speculate, but 16 pages of it without anything deeper to back it up… for what? 
 

Is this all just for your Amazon book? 

 

Aha - maybe time to come clean.

 

Dan, you asked how I knew which car you drove. Nothing 'cloak n' dagger', I promise - I just looked up your book on Amazon (shown above by Sam) and spotted the following.

 

You've self-published two books on two pretty obscure subjects - nothing wrong with that. But then you've given them both identically worded 5 star reviews under the name 'Paul'. (The only reviews either book has gotten.)
'Paul' also gave reviews to accessories for a Jeep Gladiator Overland - the car you said you own.

 

Bingo.

 

Sorry to do a "Murder She Wrote" style Jessica Fletcher reveal but this whole thread has become an obsession leading nowhere fast.

 

I'm honestly not trying to rub your nose in it but, if you have to give fake reviews to your own book under a fake name, you can't really be very confident about your own theory or argument, can you?

 

Dee

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks, Dee, for letting me know that some people are overly obsessed with finding out information about someone else!

 

Heck, I should feel honored that you were so interested to find out information about me!

 

Thanks!

 

Also, several people review their own stuff on Amazon to generate interest.  Absolutely nothing wrong with that, so why must you belittle me for doing it?  I mean it seems to me that you are really trying hard to put me down, by posting all the stuff that you did about Amazon!

 

And thanks for your post referring to both my books.  Maybe now someone will actually purchase one copy of either of them on Amazon!  Although forum members can get more information just reading this thread.  Ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!

 

Maybe next time, it would just be better to keep the background information you find out on people to yourself.

 

How many others on this forum have you found out information about?

 

And yes, this thread is probably an obsession with me (more like a passionate interest in a subject).  But who are you to say that it is leading nowhere fast!

 

Also, I am very confident about my own theory and argument.

 

Hey, when you have authored a thread that has generated a whole lot of interest (with over 30.8 thousand views) then maybe you will be speaking from experience!

 

Merry Christmas!

[Scogg]

I’d consider buying it, but I have big concerns. Is it all just your comments, minus the dissenting opinions and viewpoints discussed here? If any of those opinions are included, are those people credited? 
 

Will you be donating any of the book proceeds to the forum where you collaborated the information published?

 

Never seen anything like this before on the forum, so forgive me if I find it suspicious. 
-Sam 

[Dan tsuba]

Off topic here!

Hey Sam,

As stated in the first couple of pages of my book (and on the back cover which you were so kind to post), only my posts on this thread are included (and not even all of them), no one else's posts.

As you stated "Is it all just your comments, minus the dissenting opinions and viewpoints discussed here?" 

Yes, that is how it was done. 

No information was collaborated from others posts on this thread.

Now, can we move on!

Merry Christmas!

[Guest When Necessary]

51 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

Thanks, Dee, for letting me know that some people are overly obsessed with finding out information about someone else!

 

Heck, I should feel honored that you were so interested to find out information about me!

 

Thanks!

 

Also, several people review their own stuff on Amazon to generate interest.  Absolutely nothing wrong with that, so why must you belittle me for doing it?  I mean it seems to me that you are really trying hard to put me down, by posting all the stuff that you did about Amazon!

 

And thanks for your post referring to both my books.  Maybe now someone will actually purchase one copy of either of them on Amazon!  Although forum members can get more information just reading this thread.  Ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!

 

Maybe next time, it would just be better to keep the background information you find out on people to yourself.

 

How many others on this forum have you found out information about?

 

And yes, this thread is probably an obsession with me.  But who are you to say that it is leading nowhere fast!

 

Also, I am very confident about my own theory and argument.

 

Hey, when you have authored a thread that has generated a whole lot of interest (with over 30.8 thousand views) then maybe you will be speaking from experience!

 

Merry Christmas!

Ouch! Touched a nerve, didn't I? 

 

I'm pretty sure news stories about Kim Jong Un's nonsensical ranting total way over "30.8 thousand views" - doesn't actually mean anyone agrees with him. 😉

 

Merry Christmas Dan.

 

 

[Dan tsuba]

So, it was stated in a previous post here by a member that-

“I do respect your interest in this field but it honestly feels like you're trying to ram it down everyone else's throats.”

Remember, nobody is forced to read this thread!  People are doing that all on their own!

If they feel that I am ramming the information down their throats, then just don’t read the thread!

Simple!

Onward!

[Tensho]

On 12/25/2024 at 1:00 AM, Brian said:

Dan,
Do me a favour please. Take a confirmed (modern copy is fine) cast tsuba, take a punch, and punch around the nakago ana heavily to deform the metal like many of these you post.
Tell us if the metal deforms nicely and changes shape, or if it crumbles and bits fall off.

For educational purpose I went ahead and did this for everyone to see. This was one blow with a pointed punch and framing hammer.

 

For reference this tsuba came out of Japan in a lot with genuine tsuba. I knew it was cast as you can see the sekigane are cast with the tsuba. 

[Dan tsuba]

OMG Matt!

Super cool!

So what do you think the results show?

I mean the tsuba looks like it could be hand forged, but evidently it isn't!

Are you just a rebel like I am?

Do you have any idea what your experimental test will show to others?

Remember, you are messing with a multi-million dollar a year world business!

So do you agree with my posts on this thread or not?

You said the sekagane are cast with the tsuba.  Did you mean the tagane-ato punch marks?

I don't care!  Just the fact that you did the experiment is great!

Get ready for the downvotes!

Thank you so much for taking the time to verify what I have been trying to tell others for almost 3 years!

Onward!

With respect,

Dan

 

[Steves87]

Good experiment! You have definitely proved that the (mostly known) theory of tagane ato being added, will crack a cast Tsuba.

However, we don't know when this Tsuba was made.... which I believe is the whole point of this thread.

Is there a confirmed date for this Tsuba? I know it "looks old" but that doesn't mean it wasn't made in 1911. My father inlaw still has cast farm machinery components (used in orchard grading conveyors) made just after WW1 which look to have basically the same patina. Testing for the age of this Tsuba is the only way to prove anything for this thread... until then, we are basically still were we were on page 1.

 

We know there are cast Tsuba, some will definitely be antiques in their own right now that we are almost in 2025... but were they made prior to the invasion of westerners, or were they made as a way of making money and producing them fast to keep up with western tourist demand?

Or did the kettle makers whip a few out here and there... I would have, but different times, different cultures....

[Dan tsuba]

No!

Tagane-ato could have been added with the cast iron tsuba annealed and re-heated.

What Matt has shown is that a tsuba that appears to be hand forged is actually cast iron!

And no, we don't know when the tsuba was made.

Unless carbon dating is done, the flat-earthers will always be out there!

My opinion!

[Steves87]

No, Dan, we knew the Tsuba was cast because of the cast top sekigane... that is why our bro did the test

Edited December 27, 2024 by Steves87
Addwd

[Tensho]

30 minutes ago, Steves87 said:

Good experiment! You have definitely proved that the (mostly known) theory of tagane ato being added, will crack a cast Tsuba.

However, we don't know when this Tsuba was made.... which I believe is the whole point of this thread.

I posted this in response to Brian's comment. That yes, taking a punch to a cast iron tsuba will have negative effects. 

 

I haven't seen anyone attempt such things only speculation.  And no, there's no way to know when this was made. 

[Dan tsuba]

I don't know!

I can't see a cast sekigane in the pictures.  All I see is tagane-ato.

It doesn't matter.

Matt has shown that a tsuba that appears to be hand forged is actually cast.

What is the problem?

We can debate age of the tsuba and no one will ever figure it out!

This tsuba stuff is  a mulit-million dollar a year world wide business!

No one will admit anything for fear of disrupting the status quo!

Let the downvotes continue!

 

[Steves87]

Dan, the problem is that we knew the Tsuba was cast, we knew the theory of adverse effects, we tested the adverse affects theory and proved it... but we have no idea when the Tsuba was made... I thought the whole aim is to prove cast Tsuba were made in the Edo period? We have no idea when this Tsuba was made, and it is quite literally stupid to assume it was made in the Edo period. This test does not contribute to that discussion (cast Tsuba made in the Edo) other than reinforcing a call for further testing... which we knew all along at the beginning of the thread.

P.s. I can see a cast sekigane, and the owner can in hand too

Edited December 27, 2024 by Steves87
Added

[ROKUJURO]

1 hour ago, Dan tsuba said:

......a tsuba that appears to be hand forged.....

...to a blind person.

[Dan tsuba]

So, there we go!

Stephen said I was stupid (although I never said the tsuba was made in the Edo period, only carbon dating can prove that).

And then Jean (always good for belittlling people-he probably considers himself one of the gate-keepers of this forum) stated that I am blind!

Thanks guys!

Do you know what KMA means?!

No?  Figure it out!

 

[Steves87]

I didn't say you were stupid... if you assume it was made in the Edo period though, then yes, yes I did.

[Brian]

Dan, you are missing the point entirely. This isn't proving your point...it's proving the opposite. That many of these tsuba you claim are cast, showing dubious "casting flaws" and tagane ato not cast into the tsuba, are NOT cast.
And forget that whole "annealed and reheated" nonsense. If someone casts tsuba, it's to make them cheap and fast. Additional processes just add expense and time, and make it pointless.
That tsuba was obviously cast. Thank you Matt for doing that, it is a huge help, well done.
I suspect tsuba like that one were either made for display, cheap mounting or deliberate deception. They didn't take too much care cleaning up the insides of the sukashi, as that would have taken more time and expense, which goes against the point of cast tsuba.

[Guest When Necessary]

On 12/27/2024 at 8:37 AM, Dan tsuba said:

No!

Tagane-ato could have been added with the cast iron tsuba annealed and re-heated.

What Matt has shown is that a tsuba that appears to be hand forged is actually cast iron!

And no, we don't know when the tsuba was made.

Unless carbon dating is done, the flat-earthers will always be out there!

My opinion!

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

[Brian]

https://www.facebook.../share/p/19hgyq8Na8/

[Dan tsuba]

Well, off topic here.

 

But it was stated in a previous post that-

 

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

 

Well below is my Christmas gift to myself, a digital microscope!  It takes great pictures!

 

Maybe it will help me to see!

 

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!