Stroke Count Help With Mei

[cuttingedge59]

Hi All

First off best wishes for the new year .

 

I am working on translating a mei on a tanto that I recently purchased .

At this stage I think I might have the first three worked out but the last two are proving difficult to find.

These I suspect are the smiths name.

 

Rather than a straight translation I would ask for some guidance as too how many strokes make up

each of the last two kanji . I have tried a couple of options but are struggling to find something close in Markus's nihonto compendium.

 

Regards

Chris NZ

 

[Stephen]

Kane before last, cant count from that photo

[Guido]

FWIW, 10 and 8 - however, the mei strokes differ from the "dictionary kanji". Anyway, kudos to you for trying!

 

And in case you get stuck, here are the "regular" kanji (in the same color as the background  ): 兼若.

 

P.S.: BTW, Brian, there used to be a "spoiler" option - is that gone, or did I have just too much saké yesterday?

[cuttingedge59]

Thank you Both . 

I had a feeling that these kanji where different to the norm .

Blade seems to be shinshinto .

 

Chris NZ

[John A Stuart]

Yes,兼  kane is 10   and 若 nao is 8.John

[Brian]

P.S.: BTW, Brian, there used to be a "spoiler" option - is that gone, or did I have just too much saké yesterday?

Guido, when replying, the 3rd icon from the left is "special BB code"

If you click that, spoiler is one of the dropdown options. Put your text in there.

 

 

Of course, this does not discount the "too much sake" option.

 

[cuttingedge59]

Hi

And just when I thought I had it sorted , was thinking Oshu Ju Kanesada as in the shinshinto smith.

 

So now it seems maybe I had the first three wrong and is something Ju Kanenao a Shinto smith which

with a punched mekugi-ana makes sense. However the example I have looks and translates to nothing like this.

 

So back to the drawing board  so to speak.  

 

and still have the fuchi mei to translate as well .  

 

Chris NZ

[Guido]

Yes,兼  kane is 10   and 兼若 nao is 8.John

 

Hmm, I don't think "nao" is a possible reading for 若, the name of the smith should be Kanewaka.

[cuttingedge59]

Hi

Thank you Guido ,

Checked my compendium and can see the kanji for waka quite clearly now .

So got Kashu Ju Kanewaka , a Shinto smith .

Seems this way of signing was common to the 1st gen kaga den. 

 

However probably not correct but at $540 usd for a mounted tanto with signed nakago and fuchi I'm 

pretty happy. Nagasa is stained but very healthy with workman ship quite visable.

 

Chris Nz

[John A Stuart]

Well, waka seems more correct, although, I have a reading of nao as a possible of a couple. John

[Jean]

Very great smith lineage. The first one was called the « Kaga Masamune » jojo saku

[cuttingedge59]

Hi all

Interesting the translation process and quite satisfying when the mei is finally translated. In my small collection I have only 2 signed items , this and naginata from jumyo den.

 

Will now do some more reading.

 

As a matter of interest this was purchased from Centurion's Nov auction and I was the only bidder. The eye must be getting better as way better in hand than their photo's.

 

Chris NZp

[Stephen]

looking forward to your new buy Chris

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Hi Chris , I think you are going about translating in a difficult way by counting strokes . Both John Yumoto and Basil Robinsons books have tables of the commonly found characters and are easy to use . Both tables have Kane and Waka in them . For me they are the smart place to start your searching .

Ian brooks

[cuttingedge59]

Hi Chris , I think you are going about translating in a difficult way by counting strokes . Both John Yumoto and Basil Robinsons books have tables of the commonly found characters and are easy to use . Both tables have Kane and Waka in them . For me they are the smart place to start your searching .

Ian brooks

 

Hi Ian

As a beginner at translating I don't like to question those with more knowledge , However I do use Sesko's  Niihonto Compedium which has a listing of the commonly 

used kanji and is easy enough to use if you know what you are looking for . Both Kane and Waka are listed.

In my case I didn"t have a clue although I was close with the first three.  So counting strokes gives an indication as to where to start looking in the tables.

 

I would be interested as to how you find kanji in the above  mentioned tables if you don't use the number of strokes as a starting point.

Also this seems a more stylized way of scribing the mei , 

 

Regards

Chris NZ

[Stephen]

Chris

 

you may find Nelson book handy 

 

https://www.amazon.com/New-Nelson-Japanese-English-Character-Dictionary/dp/0804820368

 

another is the Afu stroke count in back of the nihonto koza book, kosogu  (correct me if im wrong in which book its in guys)

[cuttingedge59]

Hi

So after working on the nakago of said tanto I have now moved onto the fuchi which is also signed.

 

I don't have any of the fitting translation books so have used what I have on hand . 

However it stikes me that the kanji are not very well cut which makes the process harder .

 

So at the moment right or wrong I Have Bitchu - something - Masachika- Kore .

The kanji that make up number 3 & 4 or something I have not been able to find. These I would ask for a bit of help with .

I will also mention that the only one I have any confidence with is Kore .

 

With thanks 

 

Chris NZ

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Poorly cut, but a famous name. What kind of help would you like, without giving the game away? Spoiler alert:  

The first key character is probably 細 if that helps.

 

[cuttingedge59]

Prehaps stroke count and if I have any of them right.

 

Regards

Chris NZ

[Bugyotsuji]

Well, stroke count on numbers 3 (12) & 4 (5). Good luck!

(-kore is OK, but can't see Chika or Bitchu anywhere, though.)

[cuttingedge59]

Thanks Piers

Will keep working at it.

Cheers Chris

[Bazza]

Hi Ian

As a beginner at translating I don't like to question those with more knowledge , However I do use Sesko's  Niihonto Compedium which has a listing of the commonly 

used kanji and is easy enough to use if you know what you are looking for . Both Kane and Waka are listed.

In my case I didn"t have a clue although I was close with the first three.  So counting strokes gives an indication as to where to start looking in the tables.

 

I would be interested as to how you find kanji in the above  mentioned tables if you don't use the number of strokes as a starting point.

Also this seems a more stylized way of scribing the mei , 

 

Regards

Chris NZ

Hi Chris,

 

Another way to find your mystery character with the Nelson book is to work from the radical (not always on the lhs).  If you don't have Nelson and are keen on learning/identifying kanji do buy yourself a copy.  Lots of learning embedded in that book.

 

Best regards,

BaZZa.

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Hi Chris , if I was looking for a smiths name I would use Robinson . He has three pages with about 100 kanji on each page . I would simply scan the page until I found the one that matched the character I was looking for . Most would be found on the first two pages .  If I  thought it was close to what was on my  sword but was unsure I would look to see if it was a variation shown in Yumoto . I would think that at least  90 % of characters used in smiths names  ( here I mean the two characters that are typically the smiths name , not provinces towns titles dates etc ) could be found in Robinsons table. If I had no luck then I would  look down the list of Characters in Hawley . Once you find the smiths name then you simply look him up in Hawley which should give you most of the additional information that is in the signature  ie province title town etc. If Hawley doesn't have the information then I would start using other sources such as Nelson which Barry suggests. 

Good luck.

Ian

[Bugyotsuji]

Remember though that Kinko artisans used many different Kanji, not necessarily the same set favoured by swordsmiths. (In the second part of this thread we are discussing the fuchi.)

[Jussi Ekholm]

You can also try kanji searches by radicals -> http://jisho.org/#radical

 

That will be helpful if you see a part of kanji that you recognize and try to fit the missing piece of the puzzle. However these will be "dictionary kanji" as mentioned by Guido so it is sometimes not exactly putting 1+1 together directly.