Sword Paper Translation

[Prewar70]

What type of certification is this? What organization and how old is it? Is it still recognized and valid? Finally, what does it say? Thank you.

[Gunome]

Hello

Old NBTHK paper.not recognized anymore.

Mumei sword, attributed to Kiyomitsu.

[Prewar70]

Thank you.  I was thinking it was the green Kicho papers that are no longer recognized but wasn't sure about these as they are white.

[Stephen]

ah, the paper game!

[Mark]

old system the lowest rank papers were white, the next higher level were green

[Prewar70]

Thanks Mark

[Tack]

This certification is issued by The Society for Preservation of Japanese Art Swords (日本美術刀剣保存協会) on 23rd of March, 1975.

 

Certifying;

- Class of Certification: Precious Sword (貴重刀剣)

- Name: Osafune Kiyomitsu (長船清光)

- Length: about 29cm 

- Issued to Mr. Sei-ichi AIda(or Goda) 合田清一

[Prewar70]

I know there's been a lot of discussion around this but for the more experienced folks on this forum, are white papers viewed any differently than the green papers.  Or do they all fall in the same bucket as not recognized?  But with that being said, are they anymore reliable?

[Curran]

Scale of 0 to 10, they are the 1.

Lower than green papers.

 

Given the date of the papers, they might have some baseline relevance. But not much.

With green papers, sometimes you can pick off a deal where the papers (especially on kodogu) under attirbute something that will paper better nowadays- but most often swords with old green papers are papers where the attributions wouldn't stand these days. When it is a white paper, it is little better than no papers.

[Brian]

This certification is issued by The Society for Preservation of Japanese Art Swords (日本美術刀剣保存協会) on 23rd of March, 1975.

 

Certifying;

- Class of Certification: Precious Sword (貴重刀剣)

- Name: Osafune Kiyomitsu (長船清光)

- Length: about 29cm 

- Issued to Mr. Sei-ichi AIda(or Goda) 合田清一

Thank you, and welcome to the forum

Please would you sign posts with at least a partial name to make everything easier and less formal. Thanks.

[Kronos]

Scale of 0 to 10, they are the 1.

Lower than green papers.

 

Given the date of the papers, they might have some baseline relevance. But not much.

With green papers, sometimes you can pick off a deal where the papers (especially on kodogu) under attirbute something that will paper better nowadays- but most often swords with old green papers are papers where the attributions wouldn't stand these days. When it is a white paper, it is little better than no papers.

 

 

I'd disagree to an extent in that sure if you have white or green papers to a Tadahiro or ko-bizen then it's worth less than nothing, but if it papers to a mihara or sue-seki and other less desirable schools/smiths then chances are it's in the right ballpark if not the same as it'd paper these days. Everything has to be put into context and the problem was forgeries from local NBTHK branches so the lesser stuff is almost certainly legit, just a question of how much the knowledge has moved on in the last 40 odd years.

 

For example on a well known site there's a sword by a highly rated smith with green papers for sale at around the going rate for one with Hozon/Toku-Ho that I'm 90% sure is gimei and would fail shinsa these days. Whereas I have a waki with white papers that I'm 99% sure would get the same attribution if not a slight upgrade if I submitted it today.

 

At the end of the day if it's too good to be true it most likely is but if it has some of the attributes that you expect from the school/smith it purports to be and it's not high level it'll be around that. This Tanto for example without seeing it if it has basic characteristics of kiyomitsu then it's safe to assume it'd paper to a muromachi bizen smith/group like kiyomitsu or sukesada. If the white papers said Gorōzaemon Kiyomitsu then I'd call BS.