Translation assistance please

[Brian]

Hi all,

 

I was asked if anyone can assist with the translation of this mei. Sosho grass script? I'm terrible at these, even though I have the dictionary.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

Regards,

Brian

[Rich T]

the artists name is Yoshimune, there was a Showa period smith who sighed

TAKAHASHI MINAMOTO YOSHIMUNE amongst other things. He is the only one I have listed with the Yoshimune like

 

義宗

 

Maybe someone else can read it properly, I too am terrible on the Sosho.

 

Rich

[Gordon]

Hi Brian,

 

I am pretty sure the date is Showa gannen roku-gatsu hi, and I can't read the entire signature, but the name is Yoshimune as Rich has noted. Must be his Showa man.

 

Gordon

[Gordon]

Hi again,

 

I had not seen Rich's post until I sent my own. The character above Yoshi is most likely Minamoto. I can't make out the rest.

 

Gordon

[k morita]

Hi all,

 

This sword isn't Takahashi Yoshimune(WWII era).

 

This sword mei is " Fuji Samanosuke Minamoto Yoshimune", dated "Ganji gan-nen(1864) Rokugatsu ( June)".

He was making swords in Suruga and Yed.

[sencho]

Is this smith listed anywhere?

 

In Hawleys I see YOS 1585　as per rich's kanji above and also YOS 562 with the kanji 吉宗　（suruga ju) minamoto Yoshimune.... same points, same year.... same fella?

 

Cheers...

[k morita]

sencho san,

 

So,this sword is Shinshin-to.

His mei shows Honma and Ishii's [ Nihonto Meikan ]3rd ed, on page 1206. ( in Japnese, No Oshigata).

[Brian]

Thank you very much all.

Morita san, you and Moriyama san should open an internet translation business :D Thank you very much for that info, it looks like he is a relatively undocumented smith.

 

I received this additional info from the owner:

Nagasa: 74cm

Sori: 8mm

It is nearly straight and weighs 2kg. Medium suguha hamon and short kissaki,

 

I will have to try and get some pics up.

 

I was pm'ed by a member to point out that the nakago is quite suriage, but the mei is in the correct place. Looking at this, it confuses me too.

The only explanation I can come up with is that it is only slightly suriage, and had a second mekugi-ana at the bottom.

 

Brian

[k morita]

Hi Brian,

Thanks kind words, but my English is poor. :D

[Nobody]

I was pm'ed by a member to point out that the nakago is quite suriage, but the mei is in the correct place. Looking at this, it confuses me too.

The only explanation I can come up with is that it is only slightly suriage, and had a second mekugi-ana at the bottom.

I do not think that the nakago is suriage, though it was cut a little.

Sometimes, a practical nakago has the second mekugiana at the end of the nakago. It is usually called Shinobiana (忍び穴), I think. The attached photo shows the nakago of my katana with Shinobiana.

 

BTW, I too am terrible on the Sosho.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I think Moriyama-san is right and possibly the sword in question

originally looked like this one, Shinshinto Ubu Nakago :

 

[Martin]

Hi all,

 

there also was a thread on Shinobi-Ana not too long ago.

http://www.militaria.co.za/nihontomessa ... highlight=

 

cheers,

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I wonder if the Shinobiana has anything to do with Handachi mounting.

Originally my sword was in such a mounting.

Almost 80,00 cm nagasa and quiet heavy anyway...

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Nobody san,

 

I do not think that the nakago is suriage, though it was cut a little.

 

 

where is the difference? :lol:

[Nobody]

Hi,

 

Nobody san,

 

I do not think that the nakago is suriage, though it was cut a little.

 

 

where is the difference? :lol:

Hi Jacques,

 

Here I define (a) and (b) as follows.

(a) to move the machi upward

(b) to cut (and usually to reshape) the nakago

 

Then, I understand;

(1) Machiokuri = (a) and [not (b)] ---> Blade length becomes shorter but the total length does not change. (--- But in a narrow sense, Machiokuri = (a).)

(2) Suriage = (a) and (b) ---> Both blade length and total length become shorter.

(3) Nakago is cut = (b) ---> Blade length does not change. Only the nakago becomes shorter.

 

I hope that you understand the difference between (2) and (3).

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

For me it is:

 

machi-okuri = Blade length becomes shorter but the total length does not change.

 

O-suriage = all the nakago is cut and a new one is shaped so both blade length and total length become shorter

 

 

Suriage and machi-okuri = Both blade length and total length become shorter

 

Suriage = Blade length does not change. Only the nakago becomes shorter.

[John A Stuart]

Hi , When just the nakago is shortened it is suriage nakago, osuriage is where blade material is used for a part of the new nakago by machi okuri and the nakago greatly shortened, and machi okuri does not have the nakago shortened. John

[Nobody]

Hi,

 

It is surprising that “Suriage†is misunderstood like that. Suriage seems to be usually translated as “shortened tangâ€. But it does not mean that only the nakago is shortened.

 

IMHO; the main purpose of Suriage includes shortening the BLADE. And the shortened tang is the secondary result. There is no essential difference between Suriage and O-suriage in the shortening process. Only their shortening extents are different.

 

Ref. p. 66, The Connoisseur’s Book of Japanese Swords

[mike yeon]

Hi,

 

It is surprising that “Suriage†is misunderstood like that. Suriage seems to be usually translated as “shortened tangâ€. But it does not mean that only the nakago is shortened.

 

IMHO; the main purpose of Suriage includes shortening the BLADE. And the shortened tang is the secondary result. There is no essential difference between Suriage and O-suriage in the shortening process. Only their shortening extents are different.

 

Ref. p. 66, The Connoisseur’s Book of Japanese Swords

 

Nobody is correct. One of my first blades that I took to an NTHK shinsa was what I thought to be an ubu wakizashi. The worksheet came back suriage. I thought for sure this was a mistake.

 

Yoshikawa sensei then pointed out that the hamachi was moved up one CM or so shortening the blade although the nakago was not shortened.

 

Therefore Suriage.

 

mike

[Brian]

Thank you Moriyama san for that helpful reminder of what is termed suriage in the Nihonto world.

I know that I too had slipped into the incorrect useage of the word, and learned a thing or 2.

I had started to think more in terms of the nakago itself, and not in terms of the blade.

 

Does suriage literally mean "shortened?"

 

If so, then I can understand where the confusion would come from.

If I see a blade that is not machi-okuri, but the nakago is shortened slightly, then could I say the nakago is suriage even though the blade isn't?

 

Is there a difference in saying this sword is suriage, and saying only the nakago is suriage?

Many of us in the West have come to use suriage when the nakago is slightly shortened, whether or not the machi have been moved, and we use o-suriage when the signature has been lost. However it appears that we have to look closer to see if the machi have been affected.

 

Let's say that an older blade wouldn't fit into a Shin-Gunto tsuka during WW2, and 1cm was cut off the nakago without changing the machi.

Then strictly speaking it would be a cut nakago, but not called suriage?

 

Thanks for the input.

 

Brian

[Guido]

Koichi is 100% correct.

 

Machi-okuri 区送: Hamachi and Munemachi are moved higher on the blade.

 

Nakago-saki tsumeta Nakago 茎先つめた茎: only the Nakago itself is shortened, i.e. the tip section (or more) is cut off; the Mei is usually preserved.

 

Suriage 磨上 (摺上) (or Suriage-nakago 磨上茎): the Nakago is shortend, and the Machi are moved up. A more correct term (but seldomly used) is "Nakago-saki-kiri-machi-okuri Nakago 茎先切区送茎".

 

Ō-suriage 大磨上: both the Mei (if there was one to begin with) and the Ubu-yasuri are lost, i.e. the entire Ubu-nakago is removed.

 

Sources:

TŌKEN YŌRAN 刀剣要覧 by IIMURA KASHŌ 飯村嘉章

NIHONTŌ JITEN 日本刀事典 by TOKUNŌ KAZUO 得能一男

NIHONTŌ YŌGO JITEN 日本刀用語辞典 by KAJIHARA KŌTŌKEN 梶原皇刀軒

to name but a few.

[Brian]

Thank you Guido, that is a perfect explanation

 

Brian