Tsukamoto Okimasa Saku

[Julian]

Hello everyone 

i love your website and i will like to show you my new blade ... im a beginner but i want to learn more everyday  Here some pis thks 

 

Merci 

Julien 

[Greg F]

Hello Julien, Welcome and thanks for sharing pics of your beautiful new blade. Does it have a koshirae or just shirasaya? Any close up pics of the blade? All the best.

 

Greg

[Julian]

Thks Greg 

no i buy a bare blade   ...i wish to have a new shirasaya fast  here more pic ...sorry only have a cell phone for pic 

 

regards 

Julien 

[Greg F]

That blade is georgeous and I think its by a highly regarded smith, a shirasaya asap is a very good idea as you must do what you can to preserve this blade. Very nice. Cheers.

 

Greg

[Stephen]

May i ask if the seller was Komonjo?

[Julian]

Yes my friend Steph

 

Regards 

Julian

[Stephen]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TO260-Japanese-Samurai-Sword-Okimasa-Katana-Bare-Blade-79-2-CM-/161976695520?hash=item25b6903ae0%3Ag%3Ar0oAAOSwFNZWvpO3&nma=true&si=r9GU1Y%252F5lGyLZgiAzWl8Df%252B3IAk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

Yes i see now, Just so you know most likely not by the Okimasa, not that its a bad blade, looks good. Id send to John T for shirasaya and habaki.

[Darcy]

That blade is georgeous and I think its by a highly regarded smith, a shirasaya asap is a very good idea as you must do what you can to preserve this blade. Very nice. Cheers.

 

Greg

 

Tsukamoto Okimasa is highly regarded.

 

This doesn't look a thing like the one I had. Mei is a reasonable attempt to get it right though the nakago is brand spanking new.

 

I don't know enough about gendaito to say if it's legit or not. But I think probably not.

 

Note that the seller made no claims about who made it. All he did was quote what was on the nakago. Sellers do this on purpose to try to dodge claims against them. That is he didn't say this was anything in particular he just described it. He obviously has enough knowledge to know that this is an important name.

 

If someone sells something like this with the implication that it is something that it isn't though, the nimble fine print dance doesn't actually hold water when considering fraud. Fraud depends on knowledge, disclosure, and intent.

 

If you submit a blade with a signature and it fails papers, and you sell it to someone with it implied that it's an open question about whether or not it will paper, it's fraud. Knowledge, disclosure and intent. 

[SwordGuyJoe]

Julian,

Sorry to say, not the Tsukamoto Okimasa. That's obviously who this is trying to be, but i don't think that it is at all.

[Brian]

Interesting looking sword, and for the price it is a decent price even if it were unsigned.

Those that know the seller and his items know that his swords are NOT as they are portrayed. This is clearly a newly made sword, and not made by Okimasa though. There are questions about where these swords are made. Suggest you ask the seller if it came from Japan, and if so...a copy of the torokusho would be good.
Lots of rumours about where these swords are made. For $1000, you did ok though.

[Darcy]

I disagree about him doing good.

 

His first purchase and he's got what seems to be a purpose made fake from *now* and an immediate ethical quandry. That's not the good way to get into swords. But people keep spending before they can think. If you take a hammer to that mei then you have ... something .... what exactly nobody knows.  It's a sword like object. It's a repro maybe. A decent blade for cutting with unless it breaks on you because who knows what's inside. 

 

I don't know. The whole thing to me is disturbing if this stuff is being made on an ongoing basis and dumped into the market. The intent would seem to have started an Okimasa fake and then abandoned it by the time it got to shirasaya making and then just sold it off as is. 

 

It's bad news. 

 

I for one am sorry that this guy's first venture into this hobby is the ugly part and hope it doesn't stop him going forward. 

[Bazza]

Darcy and all,

 

I agree completely with Darcy, but this is a world of hard knocks.  The real, down to earth, point for anybody - ANYBODY- venturing into Nihonto as a Greenfields "hobby" is that:

 

Don't spend the money expecting to get it back.  This is Art at its best and worst.  Buy Nihonto as if you expect to lose money, therefore don't spend if you can't afford it.  This is very hard news for newbies and anybody with a heartfelt passion for Nihonto, very hard, but it is pretty much a universal truth IMHO.  One just cannot help all the Newbies on their journey of discovery.  I know, because as a mere sarariiman in my time of 50+ years of passion its been a very rocky road.  Newbies can't really be helped. They need to help themselves by absorbing the economic shocks that inevitably come with trawling for swords and use these experiences to build knowledge.  None of this comes cheaply or without study effort - the cost of knowledge is huge.  However, the joy of Nihonto is correspondingly large.  The true friends I have made in Nihonto are a Treasure beyond price and they have made the journey priceless.

 

Bestests,

BaZZa.

[Greg F]

Well said BaZZa! Its people like yourself that make my journey a much more pleasurable one. Thank you.

 

Greg

[Julian]

the blade is very heavy in my hand and feel really good  .. I dont think its a fake i already buy some sword from this seller and everytime I'm happy .. the mei as some sign of rust ...if someone cant find one like this one the web please advise but I dont think you gonna find one exactly like this ...It was a 3 day auction only ..I dont now where this guy get it sword but at the same time he sold 10 of them and one guy buy 8 at the same time ...so that weird ...by the way I love my new sword  I dont buy for making money I buy for history and have some great piece in my gaming room as well as my Japanese pilot collection .

 

Merci

Julien

[Stephen]

Julian    I had hoped we had not dropped the hammer quite so hard but it needed to be said, like Darcy i hope this experience does not detour you from going on with learning just because of what Bazza said, you will meet some very solid friends. 

 

If you really like the sword keep it. I think we have read where Komonjo does refunds if if you really feel you have been taken.

 

Edit to your post as i was posting.

 

If you truly like it thats good,at that price you could not have one made. It would be nice to know where he gets all these newly made blades.  may you ask him?

[Brian]

Look...we have to be fairly diplomatic since there is no proof where these are coming from, despite various theories. The one thing that is known is that there is funny business surrounding them.
They are either being made in Japan without registration, and being exported under the table, or they are being made (traditionally) in China and shipped from there to the USA, or they are altered swords with mei removed and new mei added. Some say there are Japanese smiths working in China producing these.
Whatever the story, they are almost NEVER what they claim to be. Likely produced in bulk with whatever name they feel like adding at the time. Perhaps others here will fill in some of the details.

They are seldom put into any sort of mounts....just sold as a bare blade.

[Julian]

thank you Stephen

for sure it not a real old blade like everyone is looking at and i dont have the knowledge to buy one of them in the present ....the mei look very great ..i work hard to tchek a lots lots of blade for sale on website and i think this one was an opportunity because of low 3 day auction high rank seller and product he sell ..maybee I'm wrong but hope not .. i never see fake gendaito like this one and still less with this mei ..hope I'm not going to buy shirosaya and kabaki for nothing  no Stephen i dont ask Komonjo where he buy this sword but its was only the second time in 2 years i see that type of auction on ebay ..and as i say someone buy 8 of 10 blade that was in auction at the same time so i dont know what to think ...tchek is recent sell i do0 not know what to think about the origin but look very great

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=komonjo&ftab=AllFeedback&myworld=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2050430.m2531.l4585

 

 

i send a email to the seller and a email to Darcy Brockbank from Nihonto.ca because is from Quebec canada to .... i will let you know the answer of bolt thks

 

 

if my blade is a fake because it like to brand new ..so it the same with this blade http://nihonto.ca/shibata-ka/..that really weird to me

 

 

all the best

Julien

[Stephen]

Hard to ponder where all these 7-900$ dollar swords went, im thinking well see them pop up again, in mounts,  im posting this sold list in case a newbie is trying to learn before he buys.

 

http://www.ebay.com/sch/komonjo/m.html?LH_Complete=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2046732.m1684

[Greg F]

Julien it looks like a nice sword and sounds like you will get plenty of enjoyment from it. Maybe just enjoy it for its beauty regardless of the mei being real or not. I think it deserves shirasaya and habaki and if you feel the need koshirae too. For what you paid I think youve done well. Ofcourse we are all curious as to where these blades are being made and by who and if you can find out then great but its doubtful. If you do ask and get an answer please let us know. In the future if you can get an expert to look at it in hand it would be great to hear what they think regardless of mei or gimei, if so please let us know the verdict as im sure your not the first on Nmb to buy from this seller and not the last. All the best.

 

Greg

[Brian]

Julien,

it is NOT by Tsukamoto Okimasa. Let's be clear about that.

3 day auction, feedback, others buying them in bulk....doesn't matter. I don't want you to be under any illusion. We try be a little bit subtle here sometimes. But you have to be realistic too.
The seller has been doing the same thing for years. Just search the forum for his seller name. Only the signatures vary, the rest is always the same.

Please don't live under any illusion that you just bought a genuine Okimasa for $1000. It doesn't work that way, and you don't slip in under the radar because others missed a 3 day auction.
They sell cheap because 90% of the Nihonto world knows what is being sold. That other 10% is what sellers count on.

Enjoy what you have, but don't spend $1000 putting it in high class shirasaya and habaki.

Darcy from Nihonto.ca already gave you his opinion in this same thread above.

 

Edit to add: I mean c'mon! Look at the list by Stephen. You think he stumbled on a cache of unmounted bare blades, all looking exactly the same age (made yesterday) and all being Gendaito? Just look at the freaking signatures on them. Signed yesterday.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/komonjo/m.html?LH_Complete=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2046732.m1684

[Julian]

thks Brain

sorry I was really thinking making a good deal when I buy it I'm realistic but very disappointed if it a fake .. I dont want to start buying gendaito if all are false .. I want real think with real history being. But as everyone if we cant buy genuine at a lowest cost I think is better ..freaking signature I'm not sure about that think ..it look very genuine and the grain is well so far  to me but as I say I'm not an expert ..I dont know what to say more thks for your time Brian

if someone have more info about were its made please share( hope its not china fake)

I will post more info when the seller answer me

 

 

 

regards Julien

[nagamaki - Franco]

 

Collect what you like, but know what you're collecting.

 

When it comes to nihonto it's just when you begin to think you know something, that you begin to realize just how little you know.

[Julian]

here the answer of the seller KOMONJO

 

Hello Julien, The blade is among the batch I receive from a Japanese dealer on consignment. I don't think the blade was made by Okimasa. He died in 1958, and the blade looks newer. Here is an example of Okimasa's blade, and the way signature is cut seems to be slightly different: http://www.tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/a00270.html It was probably produced by a starving swordsmith who cannot sell his own blades. There are over 200 swordsmiths licensed to produce swords, but only a handful can make a living by swords alone. Some may agree to produce unsigned blades, and let the dealer inscribe whatever the signature that makes them marketable. I cannot prove this, but this seems to be the most likely scenario. Here's an example of what you find at a typical swordsmith in Japan today: one person operation with many unsold blades: http://postimg.org/image/5f1waqh41/ http://s17.postimg.org/tsf03jelb/forge.jpg Although the signature may be questionable, I believe the blade itself is of high quality. Most of the buyers of bare blades use them for martial arts practice, and they report that the blades cut very well. Regards, Mike

 

I'm desapointed that Japanese swordsmith dealer do that for real

no honor to their ancestor in my point of view

that's really bad think

but I'm happy this is not a CHINESE FAKE

so beware buyer ..specialy if  you start in this field like me

of course that not cost me 8k for this one ...by the way I love it

hope I make this tread to inform more people about that

I will continu to work harder to upgrade my knowledge thks all

 

 

thks Franco ..I will think twice next time when I will be willing to buy a other one

 

Merci

Julian

[Ted Tenold]

Every dollar, or [insert currency of domain here], someone spends on a fake or otherwise highly questionable sword, is that much more money they are *away* from acquiring something genuine, educational, and truly enjoyable.  But it's also a bit more deleterious than this;  it also takes them farther away from being able to acquire better swords in the future as they progress, because at the heart of it, who will want to take a trade in of lead toward silver?  And, how much effort will it take to sell lead to go buy the silver? So buying fakes is like starting over every time, with less than you had before.  Three steps forward, four back, and the only thing learned is how to walk backward better than forward.

 

It is not just the responsibility of just the buyer, or just the dealer.  Yes, people should educate themselves to know what they're buying, but it should be a symbiotic relationship, and a truly honest dealer will try to guide their clientele though the jungle rather than just sketch a crude map on a cocktail napkin and push them in.  The client also has be be willing to invest in their own experiences by effective effort to educate themselves beyond just asking for the answers all the time.

 

In the spirit of keeping on topic for the OP;  I have not seen every Okimasa of course, but this does not look like any of the Okimasa I have seen.  Okimasa tend to run in the $8k USD range for a genuine work.  So bells and whistles immediately ring in my head when I see one priced at $1000 dollars.  While price alone is not the only criteria by which one should judge the validity of a piece, it is the first that determines what questions should follow.  If the price is uncommonly low, then the first question is naturally "Why is it priced so low?" and the next 19 questions proceed from there. 

[SwordGuyJoe]

Don't be too soured by this experience. As a gendai collector I can unfortunately confirm that more and more gendai work - especially by smiths like Okimasa - are being faked. This helps reemphasize what we say time and time again here. Unless you really know what you're doing, steer clear of eBay and buy from trusted dealers and people with good reputations.

[nagamaki - Franco]

The Japanese write that the key to nihonto appreciation is kantei. In light of that wisdom regardless of whether the sword is signed or not, whether it is papered or not, new or old, it is essential that the sword confirms the mei, if signed, and not the other way around. If the sword is mumei, kantei is still the vehicle that should be used keeping in mind that the second step in kantei is determining quality. Which to a certain extent extends to the polish, too.

 

Forgive me for repeating, but purchasing a sword (unless circumstance dictate otherwise), should be treated as an open book test. 

And if you don't have the books to open, you're already in trouble. 

[Stephen]

OK We have all seen these for sale, has anyone in the know held one in hand to report activity or lack of? take the equation of gimei out of it, does or do they have good nie nioi? hada? just cosmetic hamon? ect 

[AndyMcK]

Hello folks,

 

I have purchased several from him and when I questioned the meis he was up front and honest on them. Similar response and also got one photo from his bulk purchases at a Japanese smiths workshop, two of those ended up on my wares and they all held torokushos so registered ones. There is activity present on them, hada, hamon and others. Some have had a fast polish and bad nugui that masks lot of it.

I will try to find some photos tomorrow when I am home.

 

Blade seem to be like posted earlier, from smiths who cannot make "full" living and have not gained fame for their works, so copies and forging tests but genuine Japanese made gendai blades.

 

My interest of them is purely on martial arts practice oriented, blades for people training, with few exceptions that I plan to keep myself.

 

Antti

[Brian]

I would also like to know the answer to that.

And I am stating here for the record that Mike knows MORE than he is saying in that answer. Especially having sold a LOT of these over the years. And the story about a poor swordsmith making them unsigned? Then how are they registered with torokusho, and how are they exported? Sorry, I'm not buying the story. There is a lot more to it, and I suspect members here know some of the background.

 

Anyways....the sad thing is that these swords, if they were unsigned, would be fair value if in shirasaya, far better than Paul Chen and Hanwei and Cold Steel.

I think you could probably sell that sword for what you paid for it, even noting it is gimei and unknown origin. They have a nice hamon and shape. He should add a brand name to them and sell them as Japanese-style swords, made traditionally.

[AndyMcK]

Correct me if I am wrong but is it not nowadays mandatory to sign the blades in order to get the torokusho? So maybe there is the reason for summary smiths with easy access meis for copying?

 

Antti