cristini Posted September 10, 2007 Report Posted September 10, 2007 I think it is a genuine gunto, but the blade looks strange and the mei is hard to understand and it is a woman name... please someone can help me to have information.... ? I put a little bit mineral oil on the blade and you can see it on the reflects light on several photos, in fact the blade is really polished and have not any fake reflect. Thank you for your help.
remzy Posted September 10, 2007 Report Posted September 10, 2007 The hada is very odd looking to me, so are the mei and nakago shape. Hmmm... :?
Grey Doffin Posted September 11, 2007 Report Posted September 11, 2007 I agree with Stephen, an obvious fake. Study Grasshopper. Grey
Ichi Posted September 11, 2007 Report Posted September 11, 2007 I think it's a geniune Chinese fake, and they are getting good at it .
Grey Doffin Posted September 11, 2007 Report Posted September 11, 2007 Grasshopper, What you should have noticed, what I can see from the photos: 1st pic: the ko-shinogi (continuation of the shinogi line in the kissaki) is straight. It should have a curve to match the curve of the kissaki. 2nd pic: what you are looking at here isn't hada. This is a mix of different metals put together and etched to bring out the differences. Real hada is crystaline structure in the steel body. Look at pictures of good swords and you'll see the difference. 3rd pic: The mei was cut with a dremel tool rather than with a chisel. A dremel removes metal with a spinning abrasive bit. A chisel doesn't remove metal; it moves it. 4th pic: The tsuka-ito is crudely wrapped, nothing at all like it should be. Real Japanese swords aren't mounted in fake mounts. Also in this pic: the saya is painted, not lacquered. Experience and study will help you recognize the difference. The fuchi and koi-guchi (fittings at the joint between tsuka and saya) are crudely made and meet at a weird angle, often the case with fakes. 5th pic: The ha-machi and mune-machi are too deep (the nakago is too narrow for the width of the blade). This is often seen on the Chinese fakes. Buy books and study. Grey
Jean Posted September 11, 2007 Report Posted September 11, 2007 Grasshoper, Have a look at the hamon, it is very regular (too regular), it seems to be carved and further more it goes off the cutting edge (someone has slipped with the dremel :lol: :lol: )
kusunokimasahige Posted September 12, 2007 Report Posted September 12, 2007 Chinese muck.... sorry to say........ say ICHI!!!!! wouldnt it be an idea to start faking chinese fakes and dump them on e-bay? so you can buy a fake chinese fake, made in Europe..... or wherever... would there be anyone collecting chinese fakes yet? just for the fun of it? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: KM
cristini Posted September 12, 2007 Author Report Posted September 12, 2007 Well, i just have to thank all the personn who hgelped me to answer to that big question fake or not.. Just for informations, i don't buy it on ebay, i just find it in France. Thanks for all... errare humanum est
kusunokimasahige Posted September 12, 2007 Report Posted September 12, 2007 no problem! i also have bought my fair share of fake stuff... in WWII militaria..... so we all have been bitten once or twice, and the learning curve sometimes is steep... however, and that is what i like best about this forum and this part of the Nihonto collecting community, we all help each other out!! and that is a good thing! KM
remzy Posted September 12, 2007 Report Posted September 12, 2007 The only ""fake"" i will accept are gemei kotos! But yes, fakes happen (quite alot lately) on eBay. Remy
Ken-Hawaii Posted September 13, 2007 Report Posted September 13, 2007 And not just eBay, either. You can find great fakes at almost any gun show, garage sale, & damn near anywhere else. Finding the real ones is the real trick!
Zaimeito Posted September 13, 2007 Report Posted September 13, 2007 I think it is a genuine gunto, but the blade looks strange and the mei is hard to understand and it is a woman name... please someone can help me to have information.... ? I put a little bit mineral oil on the blade and you can see it on the reflects light on several photos, in fact the blade is really polished and have not any fake reflect. Thank you for your help. 100% genuine Chinese
Darcy Posted September 14, 2007 Report Posted September 14, 2007 Fake as everyone else has already said. Improved fake over the standard. I recently saw a faked naginata of this same breed, first time I've seen a faked naginata.
Guest reinhard Posted October 5, 2007 Report Posted October 5, 2007 That's one sorry Chinese junk. Forget e-bay and all the other trash-dealers. They ruin your eyes. There's only one way of learning about Japanese swords: Looking at masterpieces; no matter what it costs. If you are not willing to pay the price you should forget about it.
Marius Posted October 5, 2007 Report Posted October 5, 2007 Forget e-bay and all the other trash-dealers. They ruin your eyes. There's only one way of learning about Japanese swords: Looking at masterpieces; no matter what it costs. If you are not willing to pay the price you should forget about it. Reinhard, I beg to differ. There are some reputable dealers on eBay and you can buy some good swords from them. It is a good way to start with nihonto. Yes, you will not become an expert buying some low-end nihonto to study them, but still, it is fun and it encourages you to buy books, go to Japan, find a sensei (if you are lucky). Everything comes gradually. Your approach seems very rigorous, all or nothing, so to say. If I were to listen to your advice, I should forget about something which is one of my most cherished interests. Besides, not everybody can afford a "no matter what it costs" attitude. People got families, kids... etc. Not that I don't understand you, but I simply have to disagree. Best regards
Guest reinhard Posted October 6, 2007 Report Posted October 6, 2007 Hi Mariusz, I didn't mean to stop anybody's enthusiasm, but if you want to survey an area, you have to climb a mountain and eBay is definitely not its name. To say it in short terms: Try to learn from the best and don't waste your time and money on looking for the needle in the haystack (i.e. the unbearable Chinese trash flooding eBay and others). You'll never even know what you're looking for. Bijutsu-Token is one, maybe the most supreme form of arts; therefore you're right: It's all or nothing.
Guest Nanshoku-Samurai Posted October 6, 2007 Report Posted October 6, 2007 To Reinhard: You are wrong my friend. Even a piece of junk will still offer you an opportunity to learn something. A masterpiece won't take you anywhere either if you don't know what to look for. The beginner should therefore start off with some good books and affordable blades and move on as his knowledge and pocket money extends. The real Nihonto scholar is the one who can tell a good blade from a bad one even if it is in bad condition. Most fussy collectors will fail at this though. A good piece of Nihonto does not necessarily have to be expensive.
Jacques Posted October 6, 2007 Report Posted October 6, 2007 Hi, To learn the nihontô, it's only one way, to see as many blades as possible, Books are necessary but you'll learn much better seeing blades in good polish . This point is very important to discern different hada and ji-hatakari (chikei, nie, utsuri etc...) the hamon and hatakari. Some schools have a workmanship really similar impossible to discern if the blade is not in perfect polish.
Guest reinhard Posted October 7, 2007 Report Posted October 7, 2007 My dear friends, You're looking for short-cuts. There aren't any.
Bungo Posted October 7, 2007 Report Posted October 7, 2007 yeah, I remember the good ole days when the USD was strong, trips to Kyoto, nothing but the best for me............ Reality hits, my friends, easy to say buy only the " best ", can't afford the " best " ?.....forget it, find something more to your speed. LOL, whatever turns you on, many paths leading to the same bleeding place ( grave, that is, beyond that it's all speculation ). In the mean time, most would find fun when one looks hard enough. Personally I found a twice papered Kanayama tsuba , a papered Masayuki ( remember our favorite boy, Meinen Kapitan ? ) iron menuki set, a full complete Soga school early Edo hawk paintings ( all 12 of them !! ).......ALL on e-bay !! http://www.esnips.com/web/tsuba?docsPage=3 http://www.esnips.com/web/menuki?docsPage=1#files http://www.esnips.com/web/sujikabutosPh ... e=53#files ( for complete set, page 52-55, my pride und joy ) Peace............ yes, I own E-Bay stocks. milt the ronin
Guest reinhard Posted October 8, 2007 Report Posted October 8, 2007 Congratulations to your little bargains, but we're talking about an unpapered blade here and to judge one, it takes the experience of having seen genuine examples at first hand. Not necessarily national treasures, but at least Japanese swords in proper polish with visible characteristics of a time, a school, a region or even a particular smith. If somebody has this basic knowledge, (s)he may dive into the sink of online auctions. As far as unpapered blades are concerned, eBay is just a waste of time and money for beginners. The sheer fact of discussing a piece of Chinese trash like this prooves me right. By the way: This board is called NIHON-To Message Board, right? It is not called: Trash from all over the world that looks a little bit like a samurai-thing.
Bungo Posted October 8, 2007 Report Posted October 8, 2007 " By the way: This board is called NIHON-To Message Board, right? It is not called: Trash from all over the world that looks a little bit like a samurai-thing." but of course.......... but how many people are borned with the knowledge of what a true Nihonto looks like ? So people posted some " craps " asking for info. We, fortunate enough to have a little knowledge will try our best to inform so others do not tread on the same mistakes we made . This debate about how to " further " the knowledge pops up periodically on any message boards.......... some maintain only Juyo level swords, anything else is a waste of time. Others say buy a polished wak first, move up etc. etc. I maintain there are many paths to Nirvana , afterall, not all of us are borned into billionaires' family nor have a trust fund. To tell me if I can't bloody afford this hobby then i should leave it to those who can....... well, excuseeeeeeeee meeeeeee. :D By the way, those are not little bargains...they are big bargains ( from the prospective of a working stifff who has to pay for kid's college tuition ). milt the ronin
mike yeon Posted October 8, 2007 Report Posted October 8, 2007 Reinhard, I disagree about avoiding eBay. Now I don't know where you live, but how many brick and mortar Nihonto shops are in your vicinity? I live in NYC and there's only one. Unless you're in Japan, you're out of luck to find more than half a dozen. So your next best bet is to find a reputable dealer online. Guess what? Many of these dealers sell blades on eBay. It's a cost effective way to gain a worldwide audience. How about fellow collectors that are ready to sell quality blades in their collections? What do they do? Sell to dealers that will give them a fraction of the market value? Offer them to reputable aution houses like Christies and eat a 25% fee? If you have time, you can consign it with a dealer who will host it on an online site or if they don't have one they'll bring it to shows hoping for buyers. What if you're selling the blade because you need to liquidate fast for whatever reason? eBay looks pretty attractive right? I know many reputable dealers and respected collectors who have sold and sell a blades on eBay. These are not juto blades. That market is entirely different with different clients and dealers. But there are many nice blades that get bought and sold on eBay. Blades that suit beginners to intermediate level collectors. Again, remember the caveat, you need to know what you're looking at (if you don't you shouldn't be buying blades anyway...) and that takes more than basic knowledge As for bargains, once in a blue moon you will find one. Here in the U.S. we have a unique situation. After the war, tens of thousands of blades were brought back by American soldiers. Granted they are of varying quality but there are good ones out there. Many of these blades find their way on eBay because the owner may not be interested and wants to sell fast under fair market conditions. I myself have found some good deals. A nambokucho yamato tegai nagamaki-naoshi katana for $1,200, and a shinshinto wakizashi made by the nidai koyama munetsugu for $2,000. Both were restored and papered well. Not masterpieces but pretty nice blades. Now I realize that what you're trying to say is that there are many fake and low quality blades on eBay. In that respect you're totally right. On any given day, if you search for "Japanese sword" 95% of what pops up is utter crap. But a collector looking for a quality blade should NOT pass up the other 5%. Recently there was a Sa Yukihide tanto in polish with papers that sold for $8,000. Not bad for a blade made my a juyo level smith. What I'm trying to say is that it's just another place you can buy a blade if you know what you're doing. I do agree that you need to see as many blades in hand to gain understanding as a student of nihonto. But collectors vary in means and ability to access and see blades whether the reason is proximity or financial. Doesn't make you a less of a student. To say otherwise is like saying, "you're not a golfer unless you've played Pebble Beach." I have a single digit handicap and I've never played Pebble Beach. I could have stayed quiet and spent the last 15 minutes doing something else instead of writing this long post. Heck I could let everyone reading this start believing eBay is to be avoided at all costs leaving me less bidders to deal with on auctions I'm interested in. But that's not the spirit of this passion of ours or that of this fine messageboard and the community it promotes. regards, mike
Brian Posted October 8, 2007 Report Posted October 8, 2007 I think Mike summed it up quite nicely. Reinhard does have a point though..as do most of the people in this thread. The correct advice is to avoid ebay until/unless you have a solid background knowledge of Nihonto. Yes, there are some nice deals there, and some good dealers, but you need to invest in books first, then see good swords..and once you know what you are looking for you can go looking for good deals. Some of the top dealers sell on eBay, so if you know your stuff, then by all means buy wherever you choose. But as we always tell newcommers who come here with a fake they just bought: Buy books, see swords, meet up with other enthusiasts...and then buy your first sword from a reputable dealer. As for all or nothing. Well.... there are NO swords for sale in South Africa here. And very few good ones to look at. So online is a necessary evil, and I was lucky enough to have arranged a trip to Japan to see good swords. But if it was a case of all or nothing then we wouldn't have this forum Not everyone has to be a purist in their own field. Some do it just for fun. Many eventually sell their 5 or 10 mid-level swords and buy one Juyo one. There is always a place for low to mid level swords, and not everyone has the money required for top class items. But always strive to improve your knowledge and collection, as having 20 junk blades does not benefit your knowledge. I think this subject is now officially flogged to death, so let's leave it at that. Brian
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