What can we do to increase the number of Nihonto collectors?

[c2tcardin]

I really wish we could get one going here in the Raleigh/Durham area of NC.

 

perhaps we can find a middle place as I am collector in hickory NC area, and I know of a couple towards greensboro

 

Hey, I am right moving into your "neighborhood" soon. My wife and I will live in Wilmington NC from January on so

maybe we can work something out in 2015. I need some time until all paperwork is done and I have finally settled

there but I would really welcome a meeting some time later in the year.

 

Ok, now were talking. Lets see what we can start in 2015. Perhaps some more in the area will come forward or we can look for some new innovative way to get people to connect.

[LakeBum]

Well I'm sure there is nothing like having swords in hand, but maybe there is a program like skype to have meetings online?

[smicha6551]

Might be ok for discussions or showing fittings but trying to show details of a blade on the typical PC camera would be rather less than ideal - resolutions tends to be rather poor.

[Adrian]

Too many began to adopt the view that if you were not paying considerable sums for papered blades in shirasaya you were not 'a serious collector'. The irony was that that these collectors failed to appreciate that anyone can acquire quality with money and didn't need any expertise whatsoever to do so. I felt then and still do it is those who because of their limited funds cannot acquire high quality swords from the art market yet still manage to pluck out good blades from what appears to be a pile of junk who should be applauded.

 

I think this phrase should be carved in gold letters at the top of every collector's forum (replace swords, blades and shirasaya with whatever collectible is the interest of that particular community)

 

As for the purpose of this thread, online availability information is of paramount importance for the growth of the nihonto collectors community. Particularly in the case of entry-level information. In today's world there are very few individuals willing to part out with several thousands of dollars for purchasing books that will allow them (after serious study) to make a first (somehow) informed purchase.

[paulb]

The title of this post asked how we can attract new collectors. Some of the responses may unintentionally have the opposite effect. The ongoing references to financial elitism, beginners not being able to enter the market because of high prices and the true skill of finding the treasure amongst the dross may suggest the hobby isn't worth the time and effort. There is another perspective.

The market in this area like almost all others has always been like this. I don’t have the same length of service as Ian but when I started in the 1980's I had to save for a year to reach the £200 I needed to buy a gunto or use to part exchange with Bill Tagg for something a little better than I had. At that time established collectors were spending many thousands (often more than today) on top end swords. This is as it has always been.

When taking part in this subject you make choices. I have friends who have a large number of swords of medium quality and are happy to accumulate volume. Others distil their collections in to a few better pieces. To do this is not financial elitism it is making a choice based on a great deal of study and hard work. Neither of these is right or wrong. What is wrong is having decided which way to go to then attack or criticise those who have chosen to take a different path.

What has changed is the amount of information available and the range of swords for sale. This enables the beginner to see quality that neither Ian nor I could have dreamed of when we began. This undoubtedly creates frustration as it is too easy to see what you can’t yet afford.

It has been suggested that those who buy high end papered blades do not do so based on study and research. I am sure this is true in some cases but the vast majority of collectors in this section I have met are very serious students who know far more about the subject than I ever will. They are also willing and keen to pass on their experience.

The success of the hobby requires both ends of the spectrum.

There is a great deal to be gained in this subject, not necessarily financial but much much more. The first step is always the hardest, making a start and feeling that what you want is unattainable. The only truth in that is that it is unattainable if you never start. Instead of bemoaning the current market the high (or low) prices and the fact that the best swords are bought by people with money but no knowledge we need to encourage and help much as Barry is doing with the Canadian Society. There is a great deal of experience and knowledge out there and as one very dear old friend used to say it is a total waste of time to accumulate knowledge and experience if it is not shared.

[Stephen]

How about a travling bus set up like a museum.? Ill drive :lol:

[Alex A]

[Jussi Ekholm]

There have been many interesting threads going on about the nihonto market. Guess I'll write in this one. And as opening I will have to say that attracting new people is quite hard as swords are not that sexy (even though for us they are... :lol:).

 

I'm not sure how much time you more senior guys have spent on other sword forums, mainly those more focused towards younger/starting collectors? I've been hanging out at them for a long time, and I think Chris is pretty much spot on with the 300$ remark. Many folks who seek replica Japanese swords have a budget of 300$'s for their purchase, if there was a genuine Japanese sword up for grabs at that price, surely they might go for it. However think about what is up for grabs in nihonto market for 300$'s and then look what is up for grabs in production replica market for 300$'s.

 

Like Chris said there is plenty of interest towards Japanese swords, unfortunately for nihonto community most of that interest from young ones go towards Chinese made replicas because they are obtainable. You can get 300$ sword that resembles a Japanese sword and you can use for cutting, heck even I have couple of them and I see them as great investment. Nihonto are seen as unobtainable by many young/new collectors, and that is usually due to the economical situation of the collector. I know that because I am in the same boat. It takes time for me to save up for the 300$ sword let for alone 3000$ sword. So in the financial situation many of young collectors are in something like 13000$, 30000$ swords are only something to dream of. Yet you can still appreciate swords of high level, regardless of you own financial level.

 

I met with a senior Finnish collector recently and heard great stories about the early years of collecting when you could buy swords in England for 20-50 £'s a piece and how the collecting was back in the day. It's crazy to think what you would get for that money back then when compared to the modern market.

 

As I know my own financial limitations I've tried to get into the mindset of collecting with owning only few items. I've been trying to say to people that you can collect Japanese swords without owning them (well I guess that for collecting you might need at least one ). When I was younger I was keen on owning items but now as bit older I'm currently investing more to seeing items. Of course one big factor to that decision is that I know the quality I wan't to collect but I can't afford it... I see appreciation and knowledge as factors that I look highly upon. You don't need to own many swords to get those attributes but seeing swords is essential to developing those in my opinion.

 

I'm always encouraging new collectors to seek their nearest sword clubs NBTHK Europe, JSSUS, our own Finnish group etc. Getting in contact with people near you and actually seeing swords is very important. I've seen many fellow NMB members in various forums/platforms spreading nihonto knowledge and that is something I try to do too. It's important that we get to where potential new collectors are, and share the information with them. Unfortunately I've noticed that even in the various sword/sword-related forums there isn't too much interest towards nihonto among the new collectors. Hopefully we will find ways to fix that.

[IanB]

Paul, What I tried to do is give my personal view of how I have seen our hobby change since the late 1960's. It is also a view of someone who lived out in the sticks and who for most of my life struggled financially. What started as great hobby among ordinary blokes has now morphed into a world dominated by the wealthy. That doesn't bother me one bit - it was inevitable once people opened their eyes and saw what the reality was. What does bother me is the attitude that unless a sword was acquired from a major auction house or high end dealer and has papers, it is unworthy of consideration. This is what I meant by financial elitism. Someone I know tried to start a serious thread about really low end but genuine items and it was virtually ignored. Another acquired an item that was unusual but in poor condition. It was totally dammed by the 'experts'. It has now been polished and put to shinsa and has emerged as a superb find. Time and again beginners are told they should only study the very best swords. How? Where? Who takes the trouble to explain what they should look at in such a sword and how it differs from an average blade? They could look at photographs but in most cases they are in books that cost a fortune and are written in Japanese. Even those that aren't are written on the assumption that the reader is fully acquainted with the terminology.

 

If we are to encourage beginners we must be prepared to explain what to us is the obvious. Rather than telling them to go off and read books, far better to let them buy something inexpensive. OK it will be probably be bordering on rubbish but it will ignite their passion and hold their interest. My first sword was a wretched little wakizashi with a strip of iron for a blade that cost me 10/-. It had a sukashi tsuba of saddle parts and handachi fittings in iron with bits of silver overlay. To me it was the best thing since sliced bread. I was proud to own it - I wondered what the design of the tsuba was - what the silver on the fittings depicted. It fired my imagination and had me searching every source of information I could find to learn more. It was in short what lead me to my present state of insanity. This is how you draw people into the fold not by telling them to go away until they have acquired a level of knowledge or until they have saved up enough cash to buy something decent. They will do that later once the bug has bitten.

Ian Bottomley

[Kronos]

Agreed Ian, my dad owned and still does a machine made shingunto and when I was younger it was the most fascinating thing and if it hadn't of been for my interest in that and wanting to own something; anything then I probably would of never started collecting.

 

My suggestion would be if books are so expensive and in Japanese while the books that explain the basics like the Connoisseur's book are out of print and thus quadruple the price I paid even 3 years ago then maybe we as a forum should collectively write a book together and share the workload. Something that combines all the recommended books together in one set hat could be made available as a series of PDF's on LULU for a reasonable price ($300? ).

 

All it would need would be information on basic sword appraisal, examples of good and bad swords from the same schools with annotations of why something is desirable, information on identifying the gokaden, time period and individual schools along with the best smiths. Oshigata such as in Fujishiro's and maybe examples of the best smiths work and that should cover mostly everything for a smooth progression. You could even add a small section on common Kanji and reading kanji and you would have a book that would cover the first couple of years of any new collectors needs. There's definitely the knowledge here to cover all of that and many hands make light work. Thoughts?

[b.hennick]

The Sword of Japan by J. W. Bott costs about $15 (paperback - hard cover is more but not much more) from Lulu and like most books goes on sale regularly. It is a great beginner book - best for the buck book. I would encourage beginners to buy that one. There is a lot to learn in it and for the price you really have a bargain. I recommend it to beginners. There should be no barrier to purchase a book that is under $20 delivered to the door. Dec. 10th Lulu has a BOGO deal. Buy one get one. You can get two and give the second one as a Christmans/Hannukah gift.

[Brian]

Links for those looking:

http://www.lulu.com/shop/joseph-bott/th ... 72672.html

http://www.lulu.com/shop/joseph-bott/th ... 79892.html

 

I'll add it to my next Lulu order.

 

Brian

[paulb]

Ian

I dont disagree with anything you have said in your last mail. One thing that is fundemental to here or any other such activity is that people should be treated with respect. So should swords. My first sword was even less impressive than the one you describe. it was a showa-to which I cherished for many years as I developed an understanding. That deeper understanding was greatly added to by you and other members of the Northern Token society.

where we do differ a little is that I really do believe you learn far more by looking at good quality swords, features I have struggled to see for years in less good work are blatantly obvious in good swords. Yes I agree they are difficulty to find and see (BTW whenit comes to living in the sticks I think I am even more remote than you are!) Because of this it is worth trying to encourage people to look at the best they can when they can.

You mention that people posting poor swords, or what are perceived as poor swords are ignored, I agree this is wrong and everyone starting out should be encouraged, I was, and I hope I do the same to anyone who asks me. But it is equally wrong to assume anyone who only buys expensive swords from reputable dealers are not as committed or knowledable as you believe treasure hunters to be. It is not the case and in its way is as damaging as marginalising those who are just beginning. Neither position is valid or helpful.

Over the past 40 years you have arguably done more than anyone else in the UK to encourage beginners (including me) and that contribution is immeasurable. We need to ensure that work is continued and that learning is based on a solid foundation utilising the far greater level of information and greater number of swords avaialble for study.

[Adrian]

I think Barry is spot-on with the $15 The Sword of Japan by J. W. Bott. That's the idea: first thing needed to get new blood to any hobby is cheap (& available) INFORMATION.

 

Ask yourself: how many of those who came to the board and asked for a read list, only to be directed to a list of books worth a few thousands dollars, are still around?

[tokashikibob]

North Carolina Nihonto-jin

 

Maybe you guys want to get together at the Old North State Military Show at the Raleigh Fairgrounds? Show is 4 and 5 Jan. I don't set up but will come up if you want to talk about starting a club. If Marqukis is moving to Wilmington we can have a expert on the rolls.

Best Regards,

Bob

[CSM101]

And as opening I will have to say that attracting new people is quite hard as swords are not that sexy (even though for us they are... :lol:).

 

 

Maybe more than you think: http://www.fotocommunity.de/search?q=Za ... y=35041635

 

Uwe G.

[Derek]

I may be an optimist, but I honestly believe that the future of nihonto collecting is very bright. Technology has connected us in a way that would have been impossible just one generation ago; this very forum is proof of that! In one email, I can beg Chris B for a quick translation! A minute later, I can get an opinion from Darcy! I can send a message to a legend like Clive Sinclaire! And he responds! And Ian B in this thread! How amazing is that? In this one forum, we have some of the greatest English-speaking nihonto experts in the world.

As it has been mentioned, there is no substitute for having a great sword in hand, but I can search for a smith and have pictures immediately. The shows may be small and attended by the same people, but they are a small group of great people! People like Andy Quirt, Grey, Mike Y, all attend the shows and answer questions patiently, especially for new people.

In our age, we are having people like Markus who translate Japanese nihonto books!. And if his past prodigious output is any indication, we will be blessed with many more!

[smicha6551]

I've purchased a good number of books thus far, and I've read a mountain of threads on this forum, but I've seen nothing that clearly explains a) What a "good" sword actually is and b) What I should be learning from such a sword.

 

As an example, with stamps, there are books that show centering, from absolutely perfect to examples where the perforations are hitting the frame of the stamp. For high end shotguns I'd show examples of wood being proud of the metal (that is to say above the level of the metal), metal being proud of the wood (the opposite) and a stock which is properly made where it's smooth with the action. Poorly executed checkering has been shown in pictures, mediocre vs. top engraving, etc. I do see plenty of information on various flaws, but nothing on how to tell between a flawless kazu uchi mono (mass production blade) and a masterpiece. Anyway, some sort of guide (WITH CLEAR PICTURES) would be nice for telling "good" from bad.

 

As for studying the best swords even if I did know what to look for- anyone making that suggestion is being unreasonable. I can look in detail at the best paintings in the world right at home. Museums put such swords (if they even have them) behind glass and often don't show the blade. Shows come every four months, and apparently the better items are not put out (from what's been said here). Plus if I'm not in the market I'm not going to bother a dealer. Pictures online, even in books, don't really show what to look for.

 

Personally, I'd rather learn more about a "working Samurai"'s sword from the Muromachi period than a noble's art piece that never got used.

 

I would point out that £50 in 1964 is the equivalent of £700+/- now...so I guess it depends on what the £50 sword looked liked then.

 

Paul, What I tried to do is give my personal view of how I have seen our hobby change since the late 1960's. It is also a view of someone who lived out in the sticks and who for most of my life struggled financially. What started as great hobby among ordinary blokes has now morphed into a world dominated by the wealthy. That doesn't bother me one bit - it was inevitable once people opened their eyes and saw what the reality was. What does bother me is the attitude that unless a sword was acquired from a major auction house or high end dealer and has papers, it is unworthy of consideration. This is what I meant by financial elitism. Someone I know tried to start a serious thread about really low end but genuine items and it was virtually ignored. Another acquired an item that was unusual but in poor condition. It was totally dammed by the 'experts'. It has now been polished and put to shinsa and has emerged as a superb find. Time and again beginners are told they should only study the very best swords. How? Where? Who takes the trouble to explain what they should look at in such a sword and how it differs from an average blade? They could look at photographs but in most cases they are in books that cost a fortune and are written in Japanese. Even those that aren't are written on the assumption that the reader is fully acquainted with the terminology.

 

If we are to encourage beginners we must be prepared to explain what to us is the obvious. Rather than telling them to go off and read books, far better to let them buy something inexpensive. OK it will be probably be bordering on rubbish but it will ignite their passion and hold their interest. My first sword was a wretched little wakizashi with a strip of iron for a blade that cost me 10/-. It had a sukashi tsuba of saddle parts and handachi fittings in iron with bits of silver overlay. To me it was the best thing since sliced bread. I was proud to own it - I wondered what the design of the tsuba was - what the silver on the fittings depicted. It fired my imagination and had me searching every source of information I could find to learn more. It was in short what lead me to my present state of insanity. This is how you draw people into the fold not by telling them to go away until they have acquired a level of knowledge or until they have saved up enough cash to buy something decent. They will do that later once the bug has bitten.

Ian Bottomley

[Kronos]

Although not being old enough to say definitively I'd imagine that they were all £50 and you had your pick of what you bought so for £50 you could have a Tachi by a famous smith sitting right next to a type 95 gunto with very little price difference.

[Alex A]

Not so long ago i was at a local antiques arms fair. I stumbled across a lovely post-war signed tanto with a nice suguha hamon and very tight hada £360. A beefy signed decent shinto wakizashi with nice antique koshirae £1360. A tidy mumei shinto wakizashi blade in old polish and tatty war mounts £260. Not a shinsa paper in sight, a pleasent day out. My point being, this hobby doesnt need to cost the world.

[cabowen]

My point being, this hobby doesnt need to cost the world.

 

Realistically, one is not going to establish a reasonable library, a decent collection, pay for proper polishing, attend shows, submit for shinsa, etc., for pocket change, unless that pocket is quite deep.

[Alex A]

Horses for courses Chris.

[cabowen]

I've purchased a good number of books thus far, and I've read a mountain of threads on this forum, but I've seen nothing that clearly explains a) What a "good" sword actually is and b) What I should be learning from such a sword.

 

 

Please read Nakahara's book in which he goes into quite some detail about what makes a sword good. There are others as well.

 

In a nutshell:

 

First is shape. Is it balanced, pleasing, even, etc.? Appropriate to the period, smith, school?

 

Next is the jitetsu: is it well forged, without flaws, even, clear, deep? What color is the steel? Deep blue/purple is considered best. Black, etc., second rate. Is there ji-nie, chikei, etc.? Are they uniform, consistent?

 

Then there is the hamon. The biggest concern is the habuchi. Is it even in thickness, clarity and brightness throughout? Are the nie even in shape and size (they should be)? Is the hamon pattern controlled, well formed, consistent?

 

Next is the boshi: How well is it formed? Is it controlled, even, without flaws?

 

Lastly, the nakago: Is it well formed, filed, and finished? Is the mei well cut?

 

Finally, does everything fit together in harmony and balance?

 

Being able to kantei and being able to judge quality are different sides of the same coin.

 

After seeing enough good swords, you will start to recognize quality and be able to differentiate between good and bad. It doesn't take all that long. Being able to tell the difference between a good and great is a different story...

[Tanto54]

One of the easiest and most significant things that we could do on this Board would be to quit jumping on each newcomer who doesn't include a signature on their post. With all due respect, I understand the reason for the rule, but the message could be delivered in a much friendlier way. Many of us appear to be far too eager to pounce with a snide, off-putting comment about the missing signature while feigning a welcome greeting (this is not directed to Brian, who usually delivers that message in a humane way). I've watched as many a potential future collector has been dismayed and driven away by this trollish behavior. I know that some of you get tired delivering that same message over and over, but does it really matter enough to ruin a potential collector's first experience?

[smicha6551]

I've added his book to the list of ones to pick up. Hopefully it has comparative illustrations as while I'm sure to many here what makes for a good sword is obvious, what "well shaped is" (for example) is rather subjective.

 

I'd suggest that comments on signatures on posts be sent by PM only.

[Edfest]

This is a very interesting question!

 

Speaking as a relatively new collector/enthusiast (less than a year), the amount of information needed to evaluate a sword is daunting (not to mention fittings). I haven't posted much since I honestly don't know enough to contribute anything useful, and as a matter of fact, I don't know enough to even ask intelligent questions! I have been reading books and this amazing forum, but what I feel I need is to see and hold quality (or even flawed) blades. I try to visit museums whenever I travel, but that's behind glass. And the shows, so far, have not been possible for me (I had the Baltimore show blocked out on my schedule, but then the weekend was changed). This brings up the other limiting factor in this hobby; time. In order to get the funds to afford the hobby, we have to work :-). And then there are the families/loved ones who don't quite yet understand the obsession (at least early on). But these are the same problems with any hobby.

 

I think one of the best ways to increase the number of Nihonto collectors is to get Nihonto into their hands. Shows, clubs, etc.

Sometimes it's difficult to find where a group will be meeting, maybe that is something that could be listed somewhere.

 

As for price being a barrier, there are always differing prices and quality levels in every field of collecting. A flawed diamond is still a diamond and someone will treasure it.

 

Sadly, I, too, am geographically challenged, but hopefully I'll be able to meet some of you at a future show/meeting.

 

Or... everyone could move to Pittsburgh? That would solve a lot of my access problems :D

 

As for the positive, this message board is amazing, and the JSSUS newsletters are a pleasure to read (especially the last 2!).

 

Thank you to everyone who continues to contribute to further this field of study!

 

Ed Mistler (i almost forgot to sign my post, but then i read the above posts:-))

[c2tcardin]

Good suggestion George I would agree it sometimes comes off harsh.

 

One thing that has discouraged me in the past and even to this day, is the reluctance of some sellers to use Paypal and/or the insistence on wire transfer's of $$$ only. As a buyer it makes life so much easier to send funds either via cash in the Paypal account or the use of a credit card if I'm not currently sitting on enough cash. Paypal offers the buyer some protection against fraud which is nice but I can also use a card that I keep just to earn flyer mile or other type rewards. Sounds funny I know but I have seen cards that will give a nice incentive especially when you make a $8k purchase. Another thing I've seen is the insistence on the buyer paying the seller a higher premium because of Paypal fees as a way to avoid these fees, something I'm pretty sure is in direct conflict with the Paypal terms and conditions (don't quote me on that point though). I use to buy and trade mechanical watches such as Rolex, Panerai, Omega, etc and you just learned to deal with the fees associated with Paypal, Ebay etc. I recently sold a $9k Rolex and lost over $200 in Paypal fees but that's the nature of the beast, the key thing was I had a verified buyer, immediate payment and he had his watch 2 days later.

 

One last point about wire transfers, I'm a series 7 licensed securities trader here in the US, everything I do is watched by the SEC and the DOJ and since the Patriot Act it's become almost impossible for me (and anyone else for the matter) to financially transact monetary transfers without ridiculous scrutiny and/or disclosure paperwork.

 

If you want to invite the new generations to the table then you're going to have to also accept there are other ways to make secure payment for a blade.

[Kronos]

Paypal is a lot easier and I'd use it for the most part however when it comes to high value items people have been known to do chargebacks on their credit cards which paypal tries to take from the seller or disputes that it never arrived/is fake etc. It can be a big problem for sellers as it can be a flip of a coin who paypal sides with in disputes and if the buyer wants the benefits of using paypal then they should generally pay the 4% fees or be happy doing a wire transfer if the seller offers both.

 

I guess it comes down to how well you know the person you're doing business with and if not the the paypal fees are kind of like insurance.

[Dr Fox]

Dear members.

 

Dare I call for a moments reflection?

 

Please re - read the op by Barry. His thrust was towards promoting, a more personal approach to fostering an interest in our hobby. This by contact and meetings.

 

Barry’s call to arms, is to us as individuals, for us to see if any contacts are around, that we could invite or even join. Its a matter of heads above the parapet. Since my last posting on this topic, a gentleman who only owns a kai gunto, not only welcomes a meet, but has also offered his dwelling as a venue. (No he is not a board member, but has a very large home). Initially there may only be two of us, but with a bit of local advertising, who knows?

[Brian]

One of the easiest and most significant things that we could do on this Board would be to quit jumping on each newcomer who doesn't include a signature on their post. With all due respect, I understand the reason for the rule, but the message could be delivered in a much friendlier way. Many of us appear to be far too eager to pounce with a snide, off-putting comment about the missing signature while feigning a welcome greeting (this is not directed to Brian, who usually delivers that message in a humane way). I've watched as many a potential future collector has been dismayed and driven away by this trollish behavior. I know that some of you get tired delivering that same message over and over, but does it really matter enough to ruin a potential collector's first experience?

Sorry, no sympathy.

The message about signing all posts with at least a first name is on the registration process, in the registration confirmation email, and in the posting rules section. If people refuse to read those 3 notes, then what hope do we have of educating them about anything at all?

It is a requirement, and will be known by anyone following the forum for even a small amount of time. I am not into coddling everyone. Thick skin makes for future collectors. Some of the best forums out there don't pull any punches. Time we did the same.

 

Brian