Satsuma smiths!

[Viper6924]

Hi guys!

Doing a presentation about the shinshinto swordsmiths

from Satsuma.

Would love to know the dates (birth/death) of the three

brothers Motohira, Mototake and Motoyasu. I find a lot of

dates about when they were active but not when they lived.

Also where in Satsuma they had their workshop?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Jan

[BIG]

Hi Jan,

 

nice Link

 

http://okumototake.blogspot.de

 

Best Regards

[Viper6924]

Thanks Peter for that info about Mototake. Also got info about

the great Motohira.

Just struggling with the youngest brother of the three.

 

Motohira 1744-1826

Mototake 1748-1816

Motoyasu ?-?

 

Thanks again, Peter!

 

Jan

[Viper6924]

Managed to find some info about Motoyasu in one of Seskos

fantastic books. But not really helping me in this case, cos

his death is apparently unknown and no date of birth is mentioned.

I own a Motoyasu wakizashi signed and dates 1818, so at least

he outlived his older brother Mototake who died 1816.

The search goes on

 

Jan

[cabowen]

I found this info regarding Motoyasu:

 

年紀は天明三年頃から文政四年頃まで

 

meaning, dated works are seen from the 3rd year of Tenmei (1783) to the 4th year of Bunsei (1821). That should give you at least some idea of his life span...His work is scarce...

[Viper6924]

So we have dated work from at least 1821.

That's interesting, Chris. Sounds like there is

a good chance he might have lived passed Motohiras

death at 1826.

Motoyasu def had skills that was close to Motohiras.

If he had been born the oldest of the three brothers, he

probably been more well known and more of his work would have been avalible.

Interesting group of brothers.

 

Jan

[cabowen]

Interesting group of brothers.

 

Jan

 

Absolutely....Here's a beautiful katakiriba blade by Motoyasu:

 

[Viper6924]

Nice blade, Chris! Got that "meaty" Satsuma

look to it. These guys didn't play around when

it came to heavy swords.

I will take some pictures of my wakizashi later on.

Got some really interesting features.

Thanks for the picture, Chris!

 

Jan

[Toryu2020]

Jan et al -

According to Fukunaga Suiken writing in Satsuma no Katana to Tsuba;

 

The date of Motoyasu's death is not understood. However there is a tanto dated Bunka 5 (1808), where he gives his age as 76, we can therefore say that he was born in Kyoho 18 (1733). And given that there is a sword dated Bunka 8 (1811), he lived to an exceptionally old age for his time (at least 79).

 

hopin this helps...

-t

[BIG]

Hi ,

 

http://www.choshuya.co.jp/sale/gj/2011/ ... tohiro.htm

 

Best Regards

[Viper6924]

Thomas; I don´t feel I´m the right person to argue with Mr Fukunaga, but Kyoho 18 seems a bit strange considering that Motoyasu should be the youngest of the three

1753 perhaps... :D

 

Peter; nice sword. Have all the traits you look for in a Satsuma sword.

The sword is made by Motoyasu but I can´t translate the "...Oku Motohira meishite korewo zozu" part of the mei. Is that some kind of memorial inscription. Cos 183 years ago would be 1831 and Motohira died a few years earlier...

 

Motohira:1744-1826

Mototake: 1748-1816

Motoyasu: ?-?

 

The long life seems to have been a common thing amongst the Shinshinto smiths of Satsuma. Both Motohira and Motoyasu reached over 80. Masayoshi/yuki (another of the great Satsuma swordsmiths) died at 86.

Must be something in those vulcanic winds from Sakurajima.

 

Thanks for your help with this, guys!

 

Jan

[Toryu2020]

Jan -

Nothing wrong with your eyes, and mine it turns out. Thought I had made a mistake but indeed this is what it says in the book. No oshigata of that particular mei, something we may have to look for. I agree it is very strange since all my other references list Motoyasu as the third son of Motonao...

-t

[BIG]

Hi Jan,

 

think Bunsai 1, so he is was Born in 1735.

 

It seems he was the eldest Brother! ?

 

Best Regards

[Viper6924]

Mmm, interesting! I thought I might have missed somthing

 

I always found this total lack of a dates for Motoyasu intriguing. Most other smiths from the late 18th and early 19th century is well documented.

His two brothers are documented with dates for birth/death. But Motoyasu...

All we really know is that he helped with the making of Motohiras swords and occasionally made some of his own. And that the ones preserved is very close to Motohira

in both appearance and quality. Wonder in which way he assisted his older(?) brother?

Mototake died relative early (compared to the other Satsuma smiths) which left Motohira and Motoyasu alone for ten years, well together with some of Motohiras sons I might imagine.

This is def is worth digging deeper into.

Any translation of the "...Oku Motohira meishite korewo zozu"?

 

Jan

[BIG]

Hi Jan,

 

Shot in the dark...

 

Mei shi te kore o sosu... The Swordsmith from the Lands end...

 

don't know what our Experts think about it...?

 

 

Best Regards

[Viper6924]

Peter: A very beautiful translation and plausible in my eyes, at least.

 

The complete read of the mei is still a bit "strange":

"Made by Oku Motoyasu from Satsuma Oku Motohira the swordsmith from the lands end"

Sorry in advanced if I fumbled with the translation

 

Is this an act of respect shown by Motoyasu towards his older (?) brother Motohira? Or does it imply something else?

 

Thanks for the translation, Peter!

 

 

Jan

[cabowen]

Need to see the kanji to properly translate with accuracy.....

[Viper6924]

Guess that will be hard to obtain. We only have the link Peter posted earlier.

 

But we have some digital masters here, so who knows what they can dig out of the interweb :D

 

I would really like to know more about these brothers of Satsuma.

 

Jan

[Jussi Ekholm]

Here is the Japanese Ginza Joho page: http://www.choshuya.co.jp/sale/gj/2011/ ... tohiro.htm

[cabowen]

The work was made by Motoyasu and signed by 元寛, who was Motohira's son and Motoyasu's nephew. It is a rare example of Motohiro's signature as he most likely served as a helper in his famous father's workshop and didn't make and sign his own name to many blades.

[Peter Bleed]

Jan,

The kind of information you are looking for is very interesting, but also difficult. I've tried to do it for several of the Sendai smiths - to great frustration. You have framed the questions very well and effectively organized the expertise of the NMB. Well done!

Peter

[Viper6924]

Chris: Thanks for the explanation of the mei. They really ran a family collective with fathers, sons and uncles.

 

Peter: Thanks for the kind words. You better bring your A-game when you post nihonto related questions on this forum :D

It´s def a tricky quest. Especially when you can´t speak or read Japanese. But thats why it´s worth the extra effort. Nothing easy is fun..

 

Here´s finally some pictures of my Motoyasu wakizashi. It´s a really heavy meat cleaver. A true Satsuma sword made for battle.

Total length about 53 cm and it´s over 3 cm wide.

A gentle sugata. The jihada is very subtle with nie along the entire hamon. Not so easy to catch with my camera.

Along most of the blade runs a crisp hi. Finishing off with a Nanbokucho style o-kissaki.

Signed and dated, comes with Hozon-papers. In near perfect condition apart from the nagako, which seen better days.

But now it gets interesting. And why wouldn´t it with a Oku-family nihonto Imagine my surprise the first time I removed the habaki.

On both sides is a small kanji ingraved in the middle of the hi. Never seen this before in any Japanese swords.

The kanji is close to the "hira" in Motohira. Placed smack in the middle of the hi.

Could this, a longshot I know, mean that Motohira (1 generation or perhaps a later edition) helped with the hi. Modest as the only the Japanese

can be, he signed it and hid it under the habaki, not to take any cred from Motoyasu?

 

I open the floor for suggestions.

 

One thing is clear. This is a very interesting family to study. The fact that they also made exceptional swords, just makes it so much more fun.

 

Jan

[Viper6924]

The floor of suggestions feels mighty empty

right now...

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Jan

[Bazza]

One thing is clear. This is a very interesting family to study. The fact that they also made exceptional swords, just makes it so much more fun.

Jan

 

FWIW, a friend of mine has a karimata yanone signed MOTOYASU. A beautiful piece. If there is interest I'll try and put up a photo of it - it is a long way away from me and my friend is not technologically gifted so it might take awhile.

 

Bestests,

BaZZa.

[Brian]

Jan,

That area is usually reserved for a polishers mark or signature. But it is usually burnished in, and not cut.

However, I do not think it alludes to any smith name helping with the forging. That is a bit far fetched.

 

Brian

[Viper6924]

Bazza; If this Motoyasu is related to the smiths from Satsuma, by all means post a picture when you get a chance.

I see these kinds of threads as mini capsules of informations. Great for future references. The more pictures the better, if you ask me.

Brian; I´m sure you are right about this and I´m out on a wild goose chase :D I´ve also heard about the polishers mark but never seen one before.

But you have to agree that the kanji is very similar to the one done by Motohira.

Managed to take a real closeup of the kanji and under the habaki and I also include the end kanji from a Motohira mei.

 

Jan

[Bugyotsuji]

Great thread, great pictures and very informative.

[neo1022]

I stumbled across an Oku family genealogy in the write-up for a special exhibition on Satsuma swords (薩摩刀特別展) held at the Kagoshima Prefectural Museum of Art (cited below).  The document reproduces and discusses a family genealogy (keifu) compiled by Motohira himself, originally maintained within the Oku household. The genealogy was said to have been authored or copied by the second-generation Motohira, later lost in a wartime fire, but preserved through a surviving manuscript copy owned by Sakamoto Morinari (坂元盛愛氏), a curator and specialist of the museum.

 

Seems like the most significant contribution is a well-documented keifu-based death date for Motoyasu.

Below are some key data points from the genealogical summary, with a focus on birth and death dates (supplemented with consensus dates from other sources):
 

MOTOHIRA（元平）

• Birth (accepted in wider literature): Enkyō 1, 10th month (1744).  Nihonto-museum states October 31, 1744, but no source citation). Autumn 1774 aligns with the age-at-death (83)
• Death (in genealogy PDF):「元平、七月十三日 歿、八十三歳」 — “Motohira died on the 13th day of the 7th month, age 83.”  (The article does not give the year, but other sources claim Bunsei 9, which would yield a death date of September 8, 1826 (Japan used a lunisolar calendar before 1873, so Gregorian conversions use historical astronomical tables; the Bunsei-9 table (see here: https://eco.mtk.nao.ac.jp/koyomi/yoko/edo.html.en) provides date-by-date correspondences.

MOTOTAKE（元武）

• Birth (inferred): Age 69 at death in 1810 = c. 1741/1742* (likely incorrect, as this would make him an older brother of Motohira).   Nihonto-museum cites 1748, without references.
• Death (in genealogy PDF):「文化七 午 秋 元武、十月二十四日 歿、六十九歳」 — “In Bunka 7 (1810), year of the horse, autumn: Mototake died on the 24th day of the 10th month, aged 69” (= November 20, 1810). Nihonto-museum cites 1816 (which would be Bunka 13)—this date is presented in multiple dealer descriptions and, I believe, by Sesko.  Curious to know the primary source…

MOTOYASU, SHODAI（元安)

• Estimated Death Date: after 1821 (based on latest dated sword described in article); Nihonto-museum states that there is a signed sword dated Bunsei 4 (1821)…
• Estimated Birth Date: Online sources provide a birth date of ~1758 (14 years after Motohira?), but no supporting sources are cited.  Seems like an awfully large age gap
• Vital dates in genealogy PDF: None included. His active period is based on a few dated  collaboration inscriptions cited in the catalog:
  
  1) 寛政九 己巳 春　奥大和守平朝臣元平　（弟）元安造之／（同年）寛政九 巳 秋（初代）」 — “Kansei 9 (1797), spring: ‘Oku Yamato-no-Kami Taira no Ason Motohira; (his) younger brother Motoyasu made [it].’ (Same year, autumn, shodai).”
  
  2) 「寛政十 午 秋　弟元安以相鎚鍛之　奥大和守平朝臣元平」 — “Kansei 10 (1798), autumn: ‘Together with my younger brother Motoyasu we forged this under the hammer.’
  
  3) 「寛政十一 未 十二月二十六日（初代）　奥大和守平朝臣元平　奥弟元武元安造之」 — “Kansei 11 (1799), 12th month, 26th day (shodai): ‘…made by younger brothers Mototake and Motoyasu.’” = 1799/1800 (12th lunar month straddles into early 1800; precise Gregorian day depends on intercalations).  
  
  4) 「（文化五 戊辰 八月吉日）作之　奥大和守平朝臣元平　輿弟元武元安造之（初代）」 — “Bunka 5 (1808), 8th month, auspicious day: ‘…made together with younger brothers Mototake and Motoyasu (shodai)."  [Note that this inscription tells us there’s something wrong with Mototake's birth date (as calculated based on the death date in the geneaology); if he were born in 1744, he would have been Motohira’s OLDER brother...  Other sources cite 1748, but I don't know the source of that date...

MOTOYASU, NIDAI（元安) 

• Birth (calculated from death date in PDF): Kansei 5 (1793)
• Death (in genealogy PDF, from tombstone): Meiji 7-08-06 (September 16, 1874)
• Tombstone Transcription:（正面）「鹿児嶋縣士族 奥平元安」／（右側面）「明治七年戌八月六日」／（左側面）「行年八十二歳」 (Front: ‘Kagoshima-ken Shizoku Oku Taira Motoyasu’ / Right: ‘Meiji 7, 8th month, 6th day (1874-08-06)’ / Left: ‘Age at death: 82.”) The author concludes: born Kansei 5 (1793), died Meiji 7-08-06 (1874), age 82 (= September 16, 1874). 

SOURCE: 
Yamashita, Hiroyuki. 1988. “Oku-shi Keifu to Nidai Motoyasu [The Genealogy of the Oku Family and the Second-Generation Motoyasu].” Reimeikan Research Reports (Reimeikan Chōsa Kenkyū Hōkoku) 2: 25-42. Kagoshima Prefectural Historical Center Reimeikan. 

山下廣幸「奥氏系譜と二代元安」『黎明館調査研究報告』第2集、鹿児島県歴史資料センター黎明館、1988年、pp.25–42。

https://www.pref.kagoshima.jp/ab23/reimeikan/siroyu/documents/6757_20180421102454-1.pdf

Edited 17 hours ago by neo1022

[Bugyotsuji]

Thanks! Jan would like to see that, I can guess.