Are traditional oshigata reference books obsolete?

[cabowen]

We all know the type - the books we turn to for mei exemplars- Fujishiro, Koto/Shinto/Shinshinto taikans, etc.

 

These and others like them usually, if one gets serious about collecting, find themselves on one's shelves. They are expensive and outside of Fujishiro's set, rather large and cumbersome. Many of the swords illustrated in them are by smiths most will never encounter. (As an interesting side note, I recall hearing one advanced collector saying long ago that "if a smith wasn't in Fujishiro's set, he wasn't worth collecting" -- I suppose that is one way to make one's hunt simpler!)

 

Today, with the internet, one can assemble in a matter of minutes, for free, exemplars on most smiths one is likely to encounter. Often times several examples. These will in most cases be relatively high resolution photos that can be manipulated to make comparisons much easier and direct. They weigh nothing, can be kept on portable devices, don't tear, stain, discolor, or collect dust. And, did I mention, they are free?

 

When I have a smith or mei to research, I no longer reach for a book, I search the net. After I realized how long it has been since I needed a book for an oshigata reference, I came to the conclusion that perhaps their time has passed.

 

I find more value at present using the internet for my first search, and then turn to specialized books (those that focus on one region or group of smiths, for example Aizu, Hizen, etc.) if I need more examples or info. This is becoming increasingly rarer however as most of the time the net has become the great integrator of info- most dealers post the details they have found on their wares from these books making it a waste of time. In other words, why waste money and time collecting and searching through books when others have posted and collated the info already?

 

I notice that a few members here have caught on to this and have assembled their own virtual library. Good for them...They are ahead of the curve.

 

I have often wondered how useful it would be if say 20 or so of use pooled our time and effort and collected as many online mei photos as possible, then collated them and placed them in one searchable file? But I keep thinking that the advanced search capabilities and free storage of the net make even this unnecessary. Of course, posted images don't last forever, meaning some sort of archiving may be useful.

 

In any case, I am interested to hear what others think. We always tell new collectors to buy books. Maybe we also need to teach them how to use the resources available to them on the net....

[seattle1]

Hello:

The question refers to "oshigata reference books," however the self answered interrogative seemed to be restricted to the nakago and mei. I would take no exception to what Chris said as far as the mei goes, but oshigata books give us two other features which are of equal weight and importance.

The first is that the major references usually contain oshigata of not just the nakago, but also of the blade proper with particular emphasis on the yakiba, and sometimes line drawings of the jihada. I do not find image reproductions of the yakiba to be as useful as a well done interpretation by a skilled oshigata artist.

Secondly, a good illustrated treatment of a blade or smith will usually contain jewels of textual information, which is the real product of the whole exercise. With out those sort of discussions, for example, the Fujishiro books would be of much less use to their users. Those discussions are usually not easy to find on line, at least not tied to particular oshigata. I do recognize that for the non-Japanese reading collector, all such discussions are not translated, but many are. Any oshigata without scholarly context doesn't offer us much.

Arnold F.

[cabowen]

Valid point, the value of oshigata showing the hamon/boshi and the commentary included with each entry...

 

I can honestly say however that I have not missed this in most cases. There are several online dealers who do include well made oshigata and commentary about the smith and his work style and there are many other resources in addition to sales sites that have a wealth of this information. I have found that many sites have very high quality images that can often times show detail that even the best oshigata can not. And, while I do not know offhand the percentage of entries in Fujishiro's set that include hamon and/or boshi graphics, if memory serves it is much less than 50% in any case.

 

I certainly don' think all books are obsolete, but perhaps a well chosen set, like the Koza, along with the internet, might get one there....Other opinions?

[paulb]

Hi Chris,

I am very biased. I love books and take almost (well not quite) as much delight in adding to my library as I do my swords. The discipline of researching in a solid form, book, journal etc adds to the discipline in some way and for me increases the enjoyment of the research. There is something more intimate about looking at a book.

I use the internet continuously as part of my job, so my choice has nothing to do with fear of technology. In the same way I have never considered a kindle as an alternative to buying a novel.

Strangely enough the volumes I use least are Fujishiro, possibly because the majority of swords I am interested in are mumei. Were it not for the fact they were a gift from a very dear friend I would probably have sold set of Fujishiro's. My Taikans are regularly hammered as are all of my NBTHK journals and other publications.

I think, or at least hope, that the use of such works will continue to be valued for very many years to come.

Interesting topic thank you for starting it

Regards

Paul

[Gabriel L]

An interesting question Chris.

 

Online Mei Comparisons

 

Not having the finances to collect an extensive library of oshigata (let alone actual swords ) I have certainly been among those who regularly create nakago/mei comparisons from free online sources:

 

• 
  

Ogasawara Shōsai Nagamune
Omi no Kami Fujiwara Tsuguhiro and closeup mei comparison
Hitachi no Kami Muneshige
Yoshinori
Tamba no Kami Yoshimichi

 

You get the idea.

 

In fact I have found this strategy to be a very useful one (and one which I am getting down to a science, haha), for all the myriad reasons you cite: free, instant search, manipulatable, full-color, very many examples, etc.

 

On the other hand, it takes a considerable amount of time to find the examples, puzzle out (in the case of Japanese pages) which ones are papered and/or which may be gimei, confirm which smith (e.g. generation) I'm looking at, decide how to scale the examples relative to each other, label them, arrange them, etc.

 

Yet that in and of itself is a valuable exercise. Every time I do it I gain a very strong sense of a smith's mei style and which examples are more or less likely to paper. Not at all as good as hands-on study of course, but certainly better than viewing just a few B&W oshigata in a book. And the fact that the entire blade is usually photographed from multiple angles is also indispensable.

 

Traditional Oshigata Books

 

However, I do think traditional oshigata books have some significant points in their favor. They are usually assembled and pre-analyzed by people more experienced than myself, so the knowledge therein is quite valuable. They are much faster to consult. They allow one to do the secondary research steps themselves instead of relying on dealers to transmit information (and this enables one to form their own opinions on each source). Also, web sites are notoriously transient; useful pages up today can be obliterated tomorrow, but with care my library will out-survive me easily. And consider that the motivation for experts to publish oshigata books is surely one reason why we have such good comparative notes on certain smiths. Surely supporting such scholarship is only to the betterment of the field. Arnold also mentioned the very valuable oshigata of workmanship and notes thereon.

 

I also find that collecting nihontō books is an enjoyable pursuit in and of itself. And I gain knowledge in a much broader and more active fashion by deliberately reading through books than I do by merely passively waiting for a specific smith research challenge to come along. Also, as an amateur typographer and typesetter, I have natural bibliophilic tendencies… the objects themselves are desirable if not quite indispensable.

 

On a side note, I should add that it's possible to respect such works too far. I have seen certain people treat classic reference works as if they were magically superior to all other forms of knowledge, rejecting mei if they deviate from the two or even ONE example illustrated in those books. Whereas when I do my large mei comparisons, it is easily sometimes the case that the "classic reference" example ends up being rather an outlier compared to many NBTHK Hozon and Tokubetsu Hozon examples. I urge anyone who treats oshigata books as the final arbiter to consider that all knowledge needs to be evaluated in context and with a certain degree of perspective.

 

-----------

 

Way of the Future?

 

Now, with all that commentary for and against… to be honest, I think that the traditional expensive oshigata book will and should remain with us, but it will become secondary to (or supportive of?) a single free online collaborative repository of all knowledge. That is surely what young, "computer-native" collectors like myself will spend their efforts on, matching the trends seen in other fields. The advantages are obvious — fast, free reference; immediate comparison; standardization; collaborative discussion / crowd-sourced information; reduction of redundant efforts / increased efficiency; "infinite storage" (e.g. one smith can have 10, 50, 500 swords attached to him) etc.

 

Chris, you asked about collecting online mei images and placing them in "one searchable file." You're thinking along the right track, but you're missing a major point: we already HAVE an online resource ready to collect this kind of data. It's Stan's NihontoClub database.

 

Right now that work is very rough around the edges. I have actually been helping Stan a lot on it recently, beginning with fixing all the Fujishiro references (ratings & pages), the vast majority of which were wrong when the initial database merge was done. I still have a very long way to go on that score (so far I've only gone through about 200 smiths), but I believe strongly that this project will eventually become the primary way for people to contribute found/discovered knowledge & tidbits about individual smiths, as well as attach examples of actual swords. It would help to realize that NihontoClub doesn't just aim to be a database of all smiths, but of literally every sword in existence (ideally), all attached to their respective listing.

 

Unfortunately, there are obvious hurdles to overcome, not the least of which is that the vast majority of available information is protected by copyright (whether the average netizen realizes this or not). Clearly we cannot simply steal all the hard work by each author and dealer, copying entries wholesale and taking photographs without permission.

 

Therefore I hope that as time progresses collectors will start freely contributing examples of swords in their own collection to the database — not to mention helping out with fixing entries, adding relevant commentary, etc. Even simply adding a comment on a smith's page, linking to all found online examples of a specific smith, would be a great start. And at the very least, adding mei examples based on those links surely can be considered protected under copyright law as an example of "for educational purpose."

 

Anyway, those are my two cents. Cheers,

 

Gabriel

 

-----

 

PS — I agree with you that for the purposes of a new collector, a hybrid approach of a couple of the most classic references, combined with the wealth of info available online, suffices to research a given smith. Assembling an extensive collection of nakago oshigata is no longer strictly necessary to make a reasonable judgment on a mei.

[cabowen]

Thanks for all of the thoughtful insights....Just the sort of dialog I was hoping for....

 

Gabriel, you have raised several important points that I think deserve mention:

 

Yet that in and of itself is a valuable exercise. Every time I do it I gain a very strong sense of a smith's mei style and which examples are more or less likely to paper. Not at all as good as hands-on study of course, but certainly better than viewing just a few B&W oshigata in a book. And the fact that the entire blade is usually photographed from multiple angles is also indispensable.

 

I often forget that my rudimentary Japanese skills allow me to use what is on the net in ways that perhaps others without any Japanese abilities can not. Obviously this makes the data set much smaller for many. However, as you point out above, and this is a very important point: using the net to search is an excellent exercise, in fact, one that offers multifaceted benefits. Not only can one learn about the topic but one can also improve ones skills with the language. With all of the inline kanji reading software available, this type of research is within the reach, if not the grasp, of anyone with the motivation.

 

The ability to use inline translation software is a very large advantage not available with a journal or book. I would even say bigger than large- it is huge.

 

 

On a side note, I should add that it's possible to respect such works too far.

 

This is also something lost on many. There are mistakes in nearly all books. I have found them all over the place. It is also well known to some that even the most careful collections of oshigata have been found to contain examples that are now nearly consensus fakes. I am not advocating throwing the baby out with the bath water, but everyone needs to be aware of this.

 

Of course, there have been at least a few known instances of mistakes showing up in on line info as well

 

I wasn't aware of Stan nor his database but it sounds like just the sort of thing I can see people using in place of these large old tomes in the future.

 

Perhaps I should also say that my thoughts on using the web to access information does not necessary mean we would disregard the work in print. Perhaps many are aware that digitizing books and putting their content on the computer is all the rage in Japan. In a country with so little space, many people digitize their entire library and get rid of the physical data. I know collectors in Japan with a whole room or two in their homes filled with books. How much more convenient it is to put all of that on a computer, where not only it can be searched, collated, and ordered in innumerable useful forms, but it also frees up valuable space in one's home.

 

I too am old enough to appreciate a newspaper or magazine in hand and love the weight of a well made book in my hand, but from a practical standpoint, I think the future is right in front of us.

[Gabriel L]

…Not only can one learn about the topic but one can also improve ones skills with the language. With all of the inline kanji reading software available, this type of research is within the reach, if not the grasp, of anyone with the motivation. …The ability to use inline translation software is a very large advantage not available with a journal or book. I would even say bigger than large- it is huge.

Out of curiosity, what kinds of software are you talking about? I usually plug pages into Google translate when I am looking at a page, and of course I can recognize enough basic sword-related kanji that I can zero in on the specific content I'm looking for, but a built-in tool that could translate/transliterate selections of kanji would be really helpful.

 

Long term I do intend to learn basic Japanese, but that isn't accomplished overnight.

 

…Perhaps I should also say that my thoughts on using the web to access information does not necessary mean we would disregard the work in print. Perhaps many are aware that digitizing books and putting their content on the computer is all the rage in Japan. In a country with so little space, many people digitize their entire library and get rid of the physical data. I know collectors in Japan with a whole room or two in their homes filled with books. How much more convenient it is to put all of that on a computer, where not only it can be searched, collated, and ordered in innumerable useful forms, but it also frees up valuable space in one's home.…

This is an excellent point. I like having my library, but I love having PDFs and eBooks on my tablet and computer. Being able to pull up information and carry it around like that is just too convenient to ignore (especially nowadays with syncing and 300-dpi screens etc.). I've scanned/photographed a number of useful sections from books etc. for my own use. Ideally every new or re-released nihontō book would also have an e-format. Of course, with digital distribution comes pricing quandaries and piracy, so I doubt we'll see this approach universally adopted by authors in the short term.

 

I wasn't aware of Stan nor his database but it sounds like just the sort of thing I can see people using in place of these large old tomes in the future.

It seems to me that a lot of people, despite being longterm members here or on other forums, are not fully aware of the depth and ambition of Stan's project. I myself only gradually realized its potential as I started to do more frequent "deep dives" of given smiths, and now I'm pretty much a convert. I hope that a lot more qualified contributors can join in the future and improve the accuracy and thoroughness of the content. Ideally one day in the future other valuable tools like Grey's literature index or even this forum could be merged in… but for now I'd just like to get more people involved.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Interesting topic, Chris. I've accumulated 80 Nihonto references over the years, but have also been gradually digitizing them into PDF &/or JPG files. At this point, I have 34 hardcopy books, with 46 digital files.

 

I hadn't made the comparison before, so didn't realize that almost 60% of my references are digital. Of course, I have the advantage of running my computer consulting company, with multiple scanners, but if it wasn't for copyright laws, I think most references like mine/yours/ours would be digital only.

 

Ken

[cabowen]

Out of curiosity, what kinds of software are you talking about? I usually plug pages into Google translate when I am looking at a page, and of course I can recognize enough basic sword-related kanji that I can zero in on the specific content I'm looking for, but a built-in tool that could translate/transliterate selections of kanji would be really helpful.

 

I use something called Rikaichan with my Firefox browser on the mac. It is indispensable...

[Gabriel L]

Interesting. I use Safari but this alternative worked for me.

[cabowen]

That's nice too!

 

With these tools, many doors can be opened.

[runagmc]

Chris, for opening this thread, I have been trying to hint at online study (especially for new people) every since I joined on NMB. I have a small library of books and a MASSIVE digital one. I hardly even look at the books, although there are many books I would love to own if I had money to burn (just like swords). Basically, I haven't collected many swords or books, but spent countless hours studying (and collect study material) online. People without large funds who have an interest can find an endless amount of research material online.

 

If we ever wanted to compile a collection of pics, it seems we would need to have a file naming sequence for the files (school, common smith name, mei and nengo of sword, paper level, etc.) is how I have tried to do mine.

 

Also, to Gabriel and Stan for their work on Nihontoclub.com. Also, sho-shin.com has a ridiculous amount of info, as well as others too many to name here.

[runagmc]

Also, this is the converter I use for the Japanese I can't read, http://nihongo.j-talk.com/

 

...and I have been trying to learn the language through a site called japanesepod101.com... they have a free search dictionary that is pretty good...

 

Both seem to be good resurces...

[runagmc]

Sorry for the multiple posts...

I also wanted to say, I have a few books that are basically dedicated to oshigata, and the competency of the artist who did the art work, and the quality of the printing are a MAJOR factor. These two things basically determine the usefulness of oshigata, IMO...

[Gilles]

Dear all,

 

I am accumulating for several years all the serious datas encountered on the web about Japanese swords. I have now a good deal of pictures of high quality which sometimes help me in my buys. I also keep a quite big library at hand because I am mainly concerned my the data storage.

 

Will my digital references be able to be run in the future ? Digital datas stored in old computer run by windows 96 (for exemple) are they still visible ? Does future computers will be able to read all those old datas ???? That is my concern but it may not be a problem for a computer engineer.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

"if a smith wasn't in Fujishiro's set, he wasn't worth collecting"

 

In my personal opinion, if a smith is not at least "Jo saku" he is not worth collecting.

[Gabriel L]

Will my digital references be able to be run in the future ? Digital datas stored in old computer run by windows 96 (for exemple) are they still visible ? Does future computers will be able to read all those old datas ???? That is my concern but it may not be a problem for a computer engineer.

This is an extremely valid point and goes back to what I said about the transience of websites and the relative longevity/stability of books. There are also concerns with things like proper backup, changing file formats, etc. Digital photographers face the same kinds of questions with things like RAW files vs DNG or JPEG, etc.

 

Digital is paradoxically better for storage (infinitely and instantly reproducible, easily backed up in many locations, doesn't degrade over time so long as it is kept on fresh medium, etc.) and worse (exists only as ephemeral electrons, can be wiped out by EMP or failing drives, often not backed up properly, requires software that can read it).

 

I think that digital is the clear choice for the future but that many users have not caught up to the requirements of proper digital archiving. Simply having the content on your computer is not sufficient, data must be actively protected and maintained.

 

In my personal opinion, if a smith is not at least "Jo saku" he is not worth collecting.

Why does this not surprise me in the least?

 

Better throw out the Amada Akitsugu (unrated). And I guess it must be the case that a chūjōsaku smith could never ever produce a single jōsaku+ level work, once Fujishiro handed down his judgment that smith retroactively became incapable of ever doing anything but chūjōsaku work. Nevermind that in a compendium of ~1700 smiths he almost certainly flipped a mental coin for at least some of the ratings (there are statements on this very forum pointing out cases when Fujishiro's rank is either more or less generous than the consensus). Not to mention how unlikely it is that something as multivariate and aesthetic as "quality" could be standardized and made objective to the point where a linear rating system suffices in all cases.

 

Also, the idea of "not worth collecting" is an interesting one. What is the purpose of collection? If you're stating a personal threshold level for general quality (and not a half-baked "rule" that cannot possibly work in a universal sense), fine; you are welcome to set your own standards, and certainly people should strive to collect worthwhile works. But I shudder to think that useful information on previously under-appreciated/researched smiths may not be gathered because a new collector takes such an arbitrary stipulation to heart.

 

Judge the blade, not the mei.

[Jean]

Judge the blade and not the mei

 

Reason why, collecting Koto, all my swords but one are mumei. One must consider that the rating granted by Fujishiro is done as follows:

 

http://www.nihonto.ca/ratings.html

 

Chu saku is already very good - 1500 smiths rated over more than 30000 - BTW, I had a katana by a Shinto Mino chu saku smith, Fantastic quality.

 

One must remember that the rating was done on the swords he had seen ...., many of these swordsmiths are not very well known. How many swords of these smiths had he seen?

 

That some ratings are curious it is the least one can say. Here is an example: Oei Bizen smiths are considered the best ones of their period and school, even of all schools. They should be rated according his system Sai-jo saku, or they are rated only Jo saku....

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Judge the blade, not the mei.

 

 

It's the same in all arts, there's the Masters and the others. I prefer Masters sorry.

[Gabriel L]

It's the same in all arts, there's the Masters and the others. I prefer Masters sorry.

Everyone does. That's a trivial statement. The question is, are they the masters simply because someone else (in fact, just one person) told you they were, or because you can actually recognize the quality of the work in front of you?

 

If the latter is the case, then one man's rating (or technically two men in the case of the Fujishiro brothers) based on a completely unknown sample set should not blind you to the potential reality of an actual good sword. It's surely a rare day that you'll find a blade which notably outshines the rank Fujishiro may have given a specific smith, but you seem to asserting that it's ipso facto impossible. In other words, your perspective seems to be "reality is defined by the limited notes of a single author," not "these expert notes are based on a subset of reality."

 

Fujishiro (both of them) were more learned and experienced on the subject than I can ever hope to be, by far. If I see a sword by a smith they rate higher or lower than I would expect based on visible workmanship, I take a second look, and a third, to see what I'm missing. But there's a difference between valuing and respecting their expertise, and treating their book as if it somehow shapes and limits the entire record of extant works. What do you value more, the intrinsic beauty and quality of a specific work, or the rating someone else gave the smith in general?

 

For that matter, why consider Fujishiro over, say, the Toko Taikan ratings? Or historic ratings e.g. those of the Kokin Meijin? If your argument is that the Fujishiro rankings are higher quality (i.e. more accurate), then you are a priori admitting that some authorities and rankings are more accurate than others; are you then asserting that Fujishiro's must be perfect and faultless?

 

Again, I am not arguing against the idea that in a general sense, focusing on swords from smiths rated jōsaku or above is obviously one way to establish a threshold of quality. I'm just arguing that it makes no logical sense as an absolute rule; it treats a subjective, imperfect, debatable, human ranking system as if it were some kind of intrinsic fact like yasurime or number of mekugi-ana. It's a loss of perspective.

[cabowen]

Gabriel-

 

I like you reasoning and your logic is spot on.

 

Of course it is ludicrous to think that only those meeting a certain rank in the Fujishiro system are worthy of collecting. With experience most collectors come to realize that even the top smiths did not always produce their best work and lowly smiths sometimes hit a home run. Let's not even begin to mention that there are many smiths who never entered into the Fujishiro universe....Collecting the sword not the mei is without doubt the point most experienced collectors eventually reach and is really beyond debate for most of the reasons you have mentioned. It just takes some longer than others....We all know Jacques is "special", so if his "system" works for him, more power to him. And more good blades for the rest of us!

[Stephen]

Gabe

 

matching my Tsuguhiro to your mei, i was about to the end, U6, and i said Hey thats mine, nice collection.

[Gabriel L]

Gabe—matching my Tsuguhiro to your mei, i was about to the end, U6, and i said Hey thats mine, nice collection.

Yep. Good eye. :lol:

 

BTW on that particular image I had them split into papered swords (P#) and unpapered/unknown (U#). Purely out of curiosity / for comparison's sake, is yours papered? No rudeness or doubt intended.

 

And more good blades for the rest of us!

Hear hear!

[Eric H]

It's the same in all arts, there's the Masters and the others. I prefer Masters sorry.

Citation Nobuo Nakahara:

 

...if it is Mitsutada not, that is fine, but if not, you should not think about getting rid of it just because it is not made by a famous smith. This is not the way of a true sword enthusiast. Amassing a collection that consists only of brand-name works is rather superficial.

 

Eric

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

....We all know Jacques is "special", so if his "system" works for him, more power to him. And more good blades for the rest of us!

 

 

If not confusing art and handicraft makes you special, so, yes i'm special. :D

[runagmc]

Jacques, they are all "handicrafts" and weapons... and they basically all have some level of artistic (or aesthetic) qualities to them. It goes without saying that some have more (or better) aesthetic qualities than others...

 

You seem to think arts and crafts just appeared out of thin air - NO... they are all man-made although, some use elements of nature... which, in itself, can very often be aesthetically pleasing...

 

P.S.

+1 for all of Gabriels posts so far... :D

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

and they basically all have some level of artistic (or aesthetic) qualities to them.

 

I'm sorry but art don't lie only in aesthetic features. It's more complicated

[george trotter]

The purest form of art appreciation is to collect what you appreciate.

To collect what someone else tells you to appreciate is to collect what someone else appreciates...this is a weakness of character.

Hope this helps.

[Brian]

And even moreso..everyone is entitled to their opinion. Can we leave it at that?

 

Brian

[Dr Fox]

Chris

 

I had a premonition, you might develop your line of thinking into a post. You and I very recently, had an exchange on this very subject, Google v book collecting. And the way this thread has been developed is most informative.

 

It is for me to my shame, that I am failing badly on reading basic kanji, so Google or an extensive library is of no help to me, but thats another story!