Noob question about katana

[stormridersp]

Ohayo Gozaimasu, yoroshiku onegai shimasu,

 

Hi guys, as I mentioned in my introduction, I´m starting to learn and to study katanas and bushido. I dont see myself fit for owning such weapon yet, for I´m not prepared to carry the weight that represents the soul of the samurai, with respect, technique, appreciation and care that it deserves;

 

"There is no Way that can be approached and petitioned for immediate gratification. The Universe does not work that way…. Each aspect of the craft must be examined over and over again without regard for time and energy spent, whether physically or mentally. The “spirit of the thing” is what will guide a man to his own greatness."

Miyamoto Musashi Sensei

 

But I can already see myself, sometime in the future, in Japan, looking for my first treasure, in places like these:

 

Right now, I can only fill in only a few pieces of the puzzle, while others remains in void.

I understand that katanas have been produced throughout the centuries, passing by eras of war and mass-production, eras of peace and its purposes, each with its own singularities and fine details. I would like to have a katana that is durable and that I can carry throughout my life and can, sometimes, practice tameshigiri and Iaido, while at the same time, being a symbol of great respect and appreciation.

 

Are antique katanas still fit for tameshigiri or do they loose their strenght to time?

I understand that a katana´s fittings do not survive time with its blade, so I predict that most katanas available to new bushis are sold without them. I believe these are called Koshirae and these are also available for purchase. But as I understand, even katanas produced in the same era, from the same master and school, are not the same, although carrying some similarities.

 

How compatible are these existing Koshirae to existing antique blades? If I buy a blade without Koshirae, what are my options?

 

I know that I´m not fit for appreciating a katana, because of the simple fact that I like every one I see, that is, I yet don´t have preferences for I don´t know what to look for and see in a katana. I believe that the inner quality of the blade is a matter of who-when-where: its master, era and place of creation. The outer quality maybe easier to spot, for the conditions and conservation of the blade.

 

Are these assumptions right? What should I look for in terms of study material, to start understanding the differences in quality from blade to blade? Where and how do I start?

 

Domo arigato gozaimashita!

Phil

[Jiro49]

Check out this link it has a few suggested books!

 

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14410&p=125656&hilit=beginner+collector+books#p125656

 

Have fun!

[John A Stuart]

For the most part older katana are still viable for tameshigiri, I know some experienced masters will on occasion use them. DO NOT DO SO, these are very experienced sensei and we are in the preservation of antique swords not possibally ruining them. The rest come with the maturing interest process. John

[Dr Fox]

Your intro post contains a dozen questions, to which there at at least fifty answers. May I suggest you yourself break these enquiries into single thoughts, and then research each as a list. Us the search on this forum, and other sources available on your pc.

 

[Tameshigiri is an art form learned over many years, don't be fooled by Utube, where you can see nut cases swinging Paul Chen swords, you will hurt yourself!]

 

Regards

Denis.

[stormridersp]

Thank you for the helpful links and information, really appreciated.

 

Thank you Mr. Denis and Mr. Stuart; rest assured, I´m not fooled by Youtube.

I´m a Kenjustsu/Kendo student. We regularly practice tameshigiri, always in the Dojo, under Sensei´s close supervision. I would not, under any circunstance, ever put at risk such a valuable piece of history, without Sensei´s full confidence in my Technique, Respect Appreciation and Maturity.

 

Phil

[Ken-Hawaii]

Felipe, I think you've completely missed the point. Simply do NOT use Nihonto for tameshigiri!!

 

I've trained in MJER for several decades, but would never use anything except a modern tosho for any type of cutting practice.

 

Ken

[Jiro49]

I second that! Taking an average nihonto and performing a kata, sure why not if your qualified. But never tameshigiri!

 

Just my opinion!

[kunitaro]

We have discussed about it before.

"Do you use your nihonto for tameshigiri ?"

 

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=13872

[stormridersp]

Arigato Gozaimashita Mr. Kunitaro, very interesting discussion indeed. Specially when you said:

 

That is one reason to use Modern blade (traditionally made) for Tameshigiri.

Especially for beginnrs, so you can make mistake, repair, re-polish again and again.

 

Art polish ( to see Hataraki of Jitetsu and Hamon ) in Shirasaya is the stage of resting or retirement for the sword.

 

I bow to that.

It´s a pleasure to read your comments.

 

Phil

[Lingonberry]

I'm going to say something here that will undoubtedly rustle some feathers...

 

There is nothing wrong with learning Kendo or Iaido for their own merits, nor is there anything wrong with wanting to own a nihonto for its history (among other things). Similarly, there is nothing wrong with learning about the samurai and perhaps adapting adapting some of their ideas or philosophy to your own life, but I get the impression that you wish to take things much farther than that.

 

The last samurai died in the 1800's and even by that time they weren't warriors so much as idle government bureaucrats. Learning kendo/iaido and using an antique katana (that may not have ever actually been owned by a samurai) will not make you a modern day samurai. As was mentioned in the previous thread about using nihonto for tameshigiri, the idea of bushido itself technically only dates back to a book written in English in 1905...

 

The only reason I'm saying this (and perhaps being a bit rude about doing so) is because I encountered an individual who absolutely fit the bill for a wannabe American samurai. Its his life (and yours) but the reason I took issue with this was because he absolutely INSISTED on using what he claimed to be a 700 year old, $20,000 sword for tameshigiri. It likely wasn't but that is beside the point. He was giving a lecture at a convention about how to pick good swords for martial arts and mentioned "investor grade" swords (IE antiques) multiple times as a good option. Not only is it laughable to consider any antique or art a good investment, but the idea of using antique swords for tameshigiri, as has already been pointed out, is simply unacceptable. I confronted him after his lecture to ask him to clarify some things. I kept asking, directly and indirectly, why he absolutely HAD to use that sword, or any other antique, for practice rather than an iaito or even shinsakuto and he eventually blurted out "I'm samurai." Not even "I'm like a modern samurai" or anything like that. He claimed to have many years of martial arts training and had read many, many books on swordsmanship and even tried to say that all that made him a better caretaker for a nihonto than any collector. The icing on the cake was when he said that all nihonto were made as weapons and therefore using them for martial arts practice was "honoring" them because he was using them for their "intended purpose." I'm sorry, but weapons are meant to cleave human flesh, not straw mats. If you're really using your nihonto for their "intended purpose" then you'd be rotting in prison.

 

So what's my point in all this?

 

If you insist on using an antique sword for martial arts just to feel like a samurai then you've reduced it from a historical object, art object, weapon, and even religious object into nothing more than a toy. It literally just becomes a prop in a make-believe game you're playing.

 

These swords have been around for much longer than any of us and, with proper care, will be around for much longer still. When you buy a real nihonto, or any other antique or historical relic, you don't really own it in the sense that you can do whatever you want with it. That object comes with an obligation to take good care of it so that future generations may enjoy it.

 

Never, ever forget that.

[stormridersp]

I'm going to say something here that will undoubtedly rustle some feathers...

 

There is nothing wrong with learning Kendo or Iaido for their own merits, nor is there anything wrong with wanting to own a nihonto for its history (among other things). Similarly, there is nothing wrong with learning about the samurai and perhaps adapting adapting some of their ideas or philosophy to your own life, but I get the impression that you wish to take things much farther than that.

 

The last samurai died in the 1800's and even by that time they weren't warriors so much as idle government bureaucrats. Learning kendo/iaido and using an antique katana (that may not have ever actually been owned by a samurai) will not make you a modern day samurai. As was mentioned in the previous thread about using nihonto for tameshigiri, the idea of bushido itself technically only dates back to a book written in English in 1905...

 

The only reason I'm saying this (and perhaps being a bit rude about doing so) is because I encountered an individual who absolutely fit the bill for a wannabe American samurai. Its his life (and yours) but the reason I took issue with this was because he absolutely INSISTED on using what he claimed to be a 700 year old, $20,000 sword for tameshigiri. It likely wasn't but that is beside the point. He was giving a lecture at a convention about how to pick good swords for martial arts and mentioned "investor grade" swords (IE antiques) multiple times as a good option. Not only is it laughable to consider any antique or art a good investment, but the idea of using antique swords for tameshigiri, as has already been pointed out, is simply unacceptable. I confronted him after his lecture to ask him to clarify some things. I kept asking, directly and indirectly, why he absolutely HAD to use that sword, or any other antique, for practice rather than an iaito or even shinsakuto and he eventually blurted out "I'm samurai." Not even "I'm like a modern samurai" or anything like that. He claimed to have many years of martial arts training and had read many, many books on swordsmanship and even tried to say that all that made him a better caretaker for a nihonto than any collector. The icing on the cake was when he said that all nihonto were made as weapons and therefore using them for martial arts practice was "honoring" them because he was using them for their "intended purpose." I'm sorry, but weapons are meant to cleave human flesh, not straw mats. If you're really using your nihonto for their "intended purpose" then you'd be rotting in prison.

 

So what's my point in all this?

 

If you insist on using an antique sword for martial arts just to feel like a samurai then you've reduced it from a historical object, art object, weapon, and even religious object into nothing more than a toy. It literally just becomes a prop in a make-believe game you're playing.

 

These swords have been around for much longer than any of us and, with proper care, will be around for much longer still. When you buy a real nihonto, or any other antique or historical relic, you don't really own it in the sense that you can do whatever you want with it. That object comes with an obligation to take good care of it so that future generations may enjoy it.

 

Never, ever forget that.

 

“You must understand that there is more than one path to the top of the mountain”

Miyamoto Musashi

[mywei]

I agree wholeheartedly with Lingonberry. To use an antique nihonto for tameshigiri not only runs the risk of causing huge damage in terms of value, but also doing essentially an act of vandalism towards a historical artifact that has been cherished and handed down in a family for centuries, whether samurai or not.

[b.hennick]

Great post Adam. It takes some a long time to learn some never do.

[sanjuro]

Felipe.

 

I can only agree with what Adam and Ken have said here. I am a martial artist of some decades of experience and your post alarms me to be quite frank.

The samurai were a product of a period of history that is long dead. You may admire them you may even at some point in the future understand them but you can never be a samurai. You have neither the cultural background nor the historical context in which to practice what you may at the moment think were their values. This is the twenty first century and an elitist martial class no longer exists in Japan or anywhere else for that matter, in the way it historically existed in Japan. The man you quote so readily, Miyamoto Musashi, and most of his contemporaries by todays standards would be considered at best homicidally psychopathic, even in Japan. The day and the ways of the samurai are long gone and you nor I nor anyone can aspire to be one in any meaningful sense.

The study of the sword is one aspect of learning. The study of history and the place of the samurai in that history is yet another. The study of the martial arts of the elite warrior class is also a pursuit of knowledge of not only onesself but also of the perspective one has of the world around them. These are related fields of study which cannot be reconciled with a modern world except as a step on the path the human race has walked to get where he is today. Dont become possessed by some romantic ideal of your own perception of what the samurai were.

As far as the use of a nihonto in any martial art, I would say DON'T. If your sensei has any sense of what is appropriate he will not encourage you to use a nihonto for tameshigiri at all. There is simply no need to emulate the samurai in this way just to feel as he might have. You cannot evoke the soul of a samurai within yourself by using the weapons of the samurai. It takes much more than that and a much deeper understanding. If you wish to view the world as the samurai might have, I suggest you study first the concepts of Zen Buddhism. That alone will take you many years to grasp.

 

There is no malice in what I have written here, and I trust you will not take it as malicious. It is my view only of what you have posted.

[cabowen]

If you want to emulate Musashi then follow his lead and use a bokken. No doubt you could find a boat oar as he did from which to fashion one....

[Lingonberry]

“You must understand that there is more than one path to the top of the mountain”

Miyamoto Musashi

 

Not all paths are good ones to tread. You must accept that your path does not just affect yourself, and in this case it may very well result in the permanent damage or even outright destruction of an irreplaceable piece of history.

 

Live your life however you want but realize that your choices can and do affect others. Remember that after you're dead and gone the sword will still be there. Each time it gets polished to sharpen it you will be responsible for the removal of steel. Would you rather pass that sword down in the best condition possible like this (http://puu.sh/3q0n9.jpg), or something in a condition more like this (http://puu.sh/3q0qt.jpg)?

[Tcat]

Phil, I highly recommend The Connoisseurs Book of Japanese Swords, it's somewhat of a newbie's nihonto bible and you cant go wrong with it, well worth the purchase.

 

My 2c regarding tameshigiri with Nihonto is this: if you must, don't use a nice old sword for it, use a nice new sword. Why not have one specially made for you by a swordsmith to your exact specifications, just as in old times. You would also be able to choose the precise koshirea you wanted.

 

"he eventually blurted out I'm a samurai"

 

Not only is it laughable to consider any antique or art a good investment

 

Laughable to risk damaging a nice old sword with attempted test cutting I'm in total agreement with, but I know many people who do pretty well by investing in art and antiques, I suppose it depends on what you deem a good investment though. One needs a good understanding of the art market also...

[Lingonberry]

Laughable to risk damaging a valuable sword with attempted test cutting I'm in total agreement with, but I know many people who do pretty well by investing in art and antiques, I suppose it depends on what you deem a good investment though. One needs a good understanding of the art market also...

 

It's worth the risk if you're very knowledgeable about the objects and know what you're doing as far as buying/selling. Darcy finding that Etchu Norishige at a gun show, for example... A room full of teenagers and 20 somethings at an anime convention most likely aren't going to be too successful at investing in arts and antiques.

[Tcat]

A room full of teenagers and 20 somethings at an anime convention most likely aren't going to be too successful at investing in arts and antiques.

 

Touché. I hope you know that by saying that you are discouraging the next generation of collectors and enthusiasts - MANY, if not all of which will be to a greater or lesser extent "into" anime. Welcome to the future.

 

This 20 something anime fan for one though admittedly hasn't found a missing masamune but has made at 15%-20% on EVERY Nihonto related purchase since he started collecting. How many old timers can match that?

[sanjuro]

How many old timers can match that?

 

Fortunately, as far as I'm aware, collecting nihonto has not yet descended into a competition of who makes the most profit. Dealers however would be fascinated by your claims.

Niether I hope is it a competition between the old timers against the new wave Anime 20 somethings. 'Yours is not the future until we hand it to you, and since there is still breath in our lungs, we yet have work to do........'

[Tcat]

Fortunately, as far as I'm aware, collecting nihonto has not yet descended into a competition of who makes the most profit. Dealers however would be fascinated by your claims.

 

Thank goodness this pursuit is not about profit, but having said that if no profit were ever to be made from the sale of art and swords then then both would die a slow and sorrowful death. I know a dealer that wouldn't be fascinated, the same stand up old timer that taught me keeping ones eyes peeled, buying 'low' in dollar and yen and selling 'high' in pound sterling is as good a way as any to stay in the black

 

Niether I hope is it a competition between the old timers against the new wave Anime 20 somethings. 'Yours is not the future until we hand it to you, and since there is still breath in our lungs, we yet have work to do........'

 

I just think its better to embrace all channels of potential interest stemming from youth culture or new culture or pop culture and tap them to keep these crafts alive rather than exhibit this seemingly hostile outlook towards them.

[sanjuro]

Alex.

No hostility here, at least not from me. I was in fact teasing you just a little. However, I do agree with embracing whatever new slants on our diverse culture may present themselves, in order to further the appreciation of what we all see here as worthwhile. Having said as much, God, I wish the anime films stuck just a little closer to truth rather than sensationalism. There is danger in losing sight of the truth in the desire to entertain in ever more sensational ways, a young (and sometimes not so young) public that increasingly craves to lose the truth in fantasy.

[Tcat]

Re Hostility, indeed Keith, I know you're just a tease. My old timers remark ruffled you a little I see

 

I too wish there was better or at least more accurate "anime stuff" out there, though artistic representation is often fantastical to some degree. Sometimes fantastical scenes with realistic elements can provoke thought on the potential "reality". Take chanbara movies for example. Many contain unlikely stunts and performances from actors which in "real life" would most likely not pan out as they in the movie.. but they are thought provoking, nay, inspirational for some. From chanbara we get fantastic action, which inspires real life curiosity. It is only after this curiosity is sparked that the will for serious study can emerge. Without something that grabs the imagination there will be no further interest in the subject. The inspiration I speak of may come from visiting a museum, a grandfathers war story or an inherited sword, chanbara movies or samurai kenshin x; but I'm not going to write someone off because of where their interest was originally sparked or the road they traveled to arrive at nihonto; I'de like to encourage those that are heading in the "right" direction - which is of course a serious interest in real nihonto

 

Regards,

[Lingonberry]

The trouble is when people refuse to accept boring reality over romanticized fantasy which is unfortunately all too common.

[stormridersp]

The trouble is when people refuse to accept boring reality over romanticized fantasy which is unfortunately all too common.

 

Lol!

[Brian]

 

I needed that. Yes..being a multi-forum member...I do empathise with that.

 

Brian

[Dr Fox]

If you want to emulate Musashi then follow his lead and use a bokken. No doubt you could find a boat oar as he did from which to fashion one....

 

Chris I can't help feeling you should have added "but don't use a nihonto blade to whittle it:)

 

Denis.